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Documentation about the Vampire hardware

Vampire Comparison YT Video With False Informationpage  1 2 3 4 

Robert Pulfer-Ridings

Posts 51
19 Apr 2021 04:36

The laughing and the underlying tone through the entire video, followed up by the comments did it for me.
I unsubscribed from his channel.

DiscreetFX Studios

Posts 89
19 Apr 2021 04:54

This YouTuber has owned and loved the Warp for over one year and has several love fest videos about it. Is it any wonder he prefers it to a borrowed V1200. He didn’t even know how to enable turtle mode on the Vampire. He could have found this out in less than 3 seconds if he bother to look it up. He wears a Warp T-Shirt in some of his old videos and is a major fanboy of it which is fine. But he should not have made a video about the Vampire trying to paint it in a bad light when he didn’t know much about it.

Robert Pulfer-Ridings

Posts 51
19 Apr 2021 05:01

It would have been okay if he had shown sincerity over what was happening. Then applied the fixes for the Vampire and then did another video.
    But the laughter, the comments. The little video about what an FPGA is and the constant mention that it was just emulation not real hardware. The comment that got me was "it's just a simple emulator". That's just one example.
    I have watched all his videos, some a really good. I have always thought he goes over the top with his reactions, but that could be just him. Not knowing how he acts in real life.
    I hope he sees the error of his judgement and actually does a fair comparison in the future. but going by his "I will not" attitude I don't think so.

Pitteloud Stephane
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 64
19 Apr 2021 07:00

Yes. To be clear, there is no problem here with the Warp at all, it's a great product that deserves success. In fact, we have a lot of respect for the Warp, and we think CS-Lab has probably made the best 060 based accelerator card ever.

The problem here is that at no time did the author of the video attempt to see why the V1200 was not performing well against the Warp. However, it was not difficult to have a correct system, it does not take more effort (flash the last core and activate the fastIDE) than for the Warp (for which it is also necessary to carry out an adjustment compared to the basic configuration, i.e. changing the CPU frequency, which is absolutely ok in both cases).

As Nikos Pagonis says, it is the reaction of the author of the video that also does a lot, we are far from the impartial test.

Darkulla Vampire

Posts 33
19 Apr 2021 08:07

Hello everybody, I've got tested WCIP on both vampire v500 v2+ and v4sa, and both launch the demo less 45 secondes. both vampires are with last core. FastIde =2 on v2 and 3 on v4sa.

With V6 core on v4sa, ide speed are 131Mb/s awesome score !!!🥰

Sean Sk

Posts 421
19 Apr 2021 09:55

I don't watch RetroCengo's videos generally because his videos, and in particular his hardware reviews, are of poor quality and quite frustrating to watch at times.
When reviewing hardware, there are a list of prerequisites that one needs to follow in order to ensure that the review is accurate and representative of the actual product. The most notable of these being to do your research beforehand. This means reading documents and articles on how that product functions as well as correspondence with the manufacturer.
In other words, you need to put in the hard work prior to releasing a review video or article. In RetroCengo's video, there is no evidence of this hard work or any sort of preparation prior to releasing it. It's typical of lazy "Youtube'ing" and was just a slap dash excuse to quickly rush something out online to attract subscribers.
The other issue is that the testing environments for both accelerators were not equal, and no attempt was made to ensure that settings were optimal for the Vampire. I also noticed that the Amiga 1200 motherboard that the V1200 was attached to was not an original, but a new board with transplanted components, so we don't even know if there were issues with that as well.
I also get the impression that his video was designed to antagonize a certain portion of the fan base, which is a stunt many use to attract views.
So much about that video was lazy and downright appalling. I don't watch lazy Youtubers.

Kamelito Loveless

Posts 195
19 Apr 2021 10:22

I think that he wanted the Vampire to work out of the box like the Warp.
  1) slow IDE =>,easy fix
  2) Turrican II, Risky Woods… not working properly.
  3) The demo which was not as smooth on the Vampire as the Warp
  4) The fact that it has to switch back and forth with the TV source to have sound.
  All this for him was a bad user experience and I think he thought it would be good because the V1200 does not emulate the Amiga chipset so he was thinking that it would be compatible.
  As for 85Mhz vs 105 I guess he should probably have downgraded the Warp but as he read that the Vampire was the fastest kid in town he probably thought the Vampire would perform better.
  I guess he should have asked his friend to have the latest core before starting the review.

Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 5404
19 Apr 2021 10:39

Kamelito Loveless wrote:

3) The demo which was not as smooth on the Vampire as the Warp

The Vamp is a lot faster than the Warp in 9 of 10 cases.
The Vamp at 85Mhz has 165 Mips + the advantage of AMMX.
While the 68060@50Mhz has just 40Mips and even overclocked to 100Mhz its has only halve the Mips of the Vamp.

But if you turn CPU CACHE off and set Vamp to "turtle mode" then you set the machine on slow mode, then of course the demo runs slow.
But this is on purpose setting the system into a slow mode.
The question is if the comparison is then valid.
If you turn the CPU caches also OFF on the WARP, then the WARP will runs slower then the stock unexpanded 68020 A1200.
How much value would making such a comparison "video" have?
The question is what is the purpose of the Video?
Was the purpose to make a real, fair, comparison?
Then he did everything wrong.
Or was the purpose to make a fake comparison, with the intention to bash one side, and to make this happen disable caches for one side etc to slow it down -  then he did actually do everything right.

Pitteloud Stephane
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 64
19 Apr 2021 10:56

Kamelito Loveless wrote:

  I think that he wanted the Vampire to work out of the box like the Warp.

  Well, in fact, on the Warp, the user has still some things to do, it's not out of the box at 105Mhz (and this is right, because the Warp team did that to be sure that the machine boot, as every 68060 can run at 50Mhz). And in a precedent video, this youtuber show in fact that he know that, because he clearly show the software that can change the CPU clock, check it here:  EXTERNAL LINK   
  So, the whole point of saying "well, I'm just a user, I don'tknow how to configure, the Warp came plug&play" isn't representative of the thruth in this case.... He perfectly know that some little things has to be changed. In fact, as a regular user, If I had to change some settings on the Warp to have it at full speed, I would expect to have to do the same on the V1200.....

Stefano Briccolani

Posts 576
19 Apr 2021 12:23

Everything in that video was distorted. I think it wasn't casual. There is no problem if he likes Warp more than Vampire of course but that is not a good reason to bash the other product showing an untruth reality. Everything was wrong from the laughs on the demo he launched in turtle mode to the complaints about the switch between pal and RTG. Strange that the Warp works in the same way but in his warp videos he sets the workbench in pal, he could have done the same thing with the Vampire to avoid frustration instead of moaning.
His consideration that the vampire is ok for people without a big budget is pretty lame too..really this is laughtable

David Wright

Posts 365
19 Apr 2021 14:56

To be straight up, people like Cengo are in it for the freebies. Youtubers everywhere shill for products in hopes of getting a free product or discount. I am not sure what his relationship is with the Warp people but he was on board with them early on.

Just ask Chris Edwards how little people will do to use a product or software. Pimiga is easy and all one has to do is read the two page instructions to get it going. Nope, they post all their issues  and some demand help on a product they paid nothing for. RTMFM was a real counter point back in the day. I get it, been guilty of it myself.

Michael Piano

Posts 36
19 Apr 2021 15:06

I think the main point about documentation is that a lot of assumptions are made about the user's Amiga experience. There was one set of directions I was following (it doesn't matter what it was for but it was v4 related) and the step was to sync your games and personal files. That was the instruction. Um... how exactly do I do that, step by step? In my opinion, proper instructions allow for a user, with no experience, to follow them and not need human intervention. There should be no ambiguity or confusion.

If the goal is really to get Amiga to a wider audience, you have to make it easily digestable for them. 

Discord IS helpful to an extent and there have been a few people that have answered questions but I can't be the only one to ask these questions. Need to find something that was answered before? Have to do a search. Useful? Sure. Convenient? Not always.

BTW, FastIDE what? Yes, I understand what it does but where do you change that setting? Where do you change any/all settings? What does each setting do? What's the best method to change settings? Are there multiple apps to do this?

Why can't we use a USB power switch? (Mine works great BTW) A power strip would work better? Why?

Want to use V4BL? It's a great utility. Need a network protocol for CoffinOS? Use MiamiDX or Roadshow. Where do you get them? I found MiamiDX. How to transfer them over? SD card? Okay. Where do I put the files exactly? How do I get to that location in the OS?

I wish I was an expert. I really do and maybe some day it will get to that. It just seems silly that every single user has to search out the same answers as every other user instead of having all the troubleshooting steps in one place, with explanations and details.

Maybe I'm the only on that sees it that way but I didn't configure one thing on my Amiga 2000, so games are really the only thing I ever did. I'm in the US so we didn't hear too much past the A2000. I'm at a disadvantage. There's no immediate ROI on proper directions but if it is made easy, then more people will check it out.


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 5404
19 Apr 2021 16:18

Michael Piano wrote:

I think the main point about documentation is

Documentation is very important topic and as you know we are working on documentation a lot.
But does this topic really has ANYTHING at all todo with documentation?
Or is this a case of someone on purpose make a video to trash talk?
I think we all agree : that the best documentation of the world will  not help if your only goal is to trash talk and rubbish a system.

Saladriel Amrael

Posts 159
19 Apr 2021 16:51

Good, open documentation and good communication make people don't believe that such videos are the truth reguarding Vampire

Is there an official YT Vampire channel where you guys show things and development progress?

That would be a good form of communication

Nikos Pagonis

Posts 93
19 Apr 2021 17:22

Guys this has gotten out of proportion, for god sake. We were talking about a video that has been made on purpose by a guy on youtube. And now we have started to talk about channels and extended manuals and discussions and forums and so forth. Compared to anything else that is on the market for the Amiga, i think that there is enough information out there for people to use from Apollo. Yes it can be improved and i am sure it will but this is not the reason that this happened. No matter how many manuals or channels or other info Apollo creates, this Cengo video couldn't have been avoided for the very simple reason which is called "On Purpose"!! I am not a tech expert and i am not an electronics guy but i can perfectly handle the information i am given in order to have my V1200 perfectly tuned and run whatever i want on it. 

Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 5404
19 Apr 2021 17:39

Michael Piano wrote:

I wish I was an expert. I really do and maybe some day it will get to that. It just seems silly ..

You are new to Amiga.
I find it great that people with zero Amiga knowhow
like to use Amiga - but learning this will take just time.
Please be prepared for this time and don't be impatient

I think you can not expect that there would be a manual teaching you everything about Amiga. This expectation is not realistic.
And if we would try to make such manual then it would be five thousand pages big - and no one would read it.

I truely believe that documentation is important.
But this is not the topic that we talk about here.
Everyone who likes to help us on documentation, feel invited to get in contact with us and help!

Antony Coello

Posts 123
19 Apr 2021 17:39

OK. Ive had to watch the video now, as this thread is just going on and on.

I can completely see why Gunnar is upset with the guy.

I honestly believe he had either had taken laughing gas, or was high when making the video.

Whatever he thought was funny, really wasnt that funny... would YOU laugh for 10 minutes if you had a problem displaying a demo?!

As for documentation, even I have posted about this in the past, but the situation is not dire. You can find what you need to know or ask.

What we have in the Apollo team is some very skilled engineers. Thats great and what you would want from a technical product like the V4SA point of view, but there does not seem to be enough of a P.R / documentation perspective involved.

Years ago when Commodore were still alive, they kept engineers away from sales people!

The reason, I believe, is that the engineers have actually been working on the product very closely and therefore know it inside out. Their 'knowledge bar' is therefore (sometimes unknowingly) set higher than the average person.

(Think of someone making a game, testing it and completing it, having to deal with not knowingly making it too difficult, because they have become an excellent player themselves and/or knowing how the AI will react/etc).

Gunnar, much as it pains me to say it, maybe it would be prudent to 'dumb down' the product for the average guy for sales penetration beyond the current 'technical enthusiast' level.

Like when you buy an electronic appliance and the manual has stupidly common sense type warnings like: 'Dont lick the power lead connector when its turned on.' or whatever. Ok, thats maybe too far, but maybe not, if this is how its going to be.

I DO feel your pain though...that stupid laugh would bother me.

Manuel Jesus

Posts 151
19 Apr 2021 18:09

This was plain and simple a hit piece.
  He knows all the warp settings...
  claims he doesn't know about Vampire and doesn't do the homework to check settings in a readme file? You shouldn't do reviews if you invoke a selective set of standard for once card vs the other.
  To me and others its clear he enabled turtle mode off camera.
  And as to the other Warp vs. Vampire reviews out there at least one other person told me outright that they wouldn't adjust any Vampire settings to show the Vampire in a positive light and refused to flash a newer core.
  Vampire is disruptive to the classic scene in that it divests reliance on unobtainalbe processors and OS software.
  Some folks want free or near free hardware as see the Vampire pricing and ecosystem as greed.
  Unfortunately this bias comes out in reviews. Its ok if you don't like the product but don't sabotage it.

Vojin Vidanovic
(Needs Verification)
Posts 1896/ 1
19 Apr 2021 18:31

While Warp is neatly designed card and most advanced non FPGA accelerator, not providing CPU is a downer. So in longer term, there is no real competition to Vampire - Warp card is basically reseating same pool of CPUs/accelerators, not expanding it.Only area where Warp is "way forward" is that it has planned A3000/A4000 model.
  Personal preferences should not affect VS videos, showing strengths  and downsides would be good. And Warp has enough its own merits - 4 ROM switcher, Wi Fi, USB, ARM CPU offloading, RTG integrated. Even 16 bit sound is nice but limited to AmigaDOS command player for now. Like faster CPU, MMX, advanced software support (To staying with OS 3.9/OS 3.1.4) as well as RTG/Net bundle and lower price point should be presented as Vampires. Intensive CPU, FPU and RTG benchs and applications would be way better then games and demos.

Manuel Jesus

Posts 151
19 Apr 2021 22:11

Yes Warp is a work of art in the tradition of Phase 5 type hardware, and Vampire is the Amiga upgrade we dreamed of and never got until now.

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