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Akiko Chip In Standalonepage  1 2 3 

Simo Koivukoski
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 600
04 Mar 2020 10:01


Flashing a standard CD32 ROM from the uSD card:
 
 
 
 
  Enabling Akiko in AmigaOS:
 
 
 
  DoomAttack.040 gives about 48.0 FPS with c2p_Akiko2 (SA_7375.jic beta).


Jakub H.

Posts 35
04 Mar 2020 11:10


Great! it's nice to see that it works :)


Stefano Briccolani

Posts 565
04 Mar 2020 11:59


What are the benefits of having Akiko in a system that have an RTG card?


Nixus Minimax

Posts 416
04 Mar 2020 12:57


Stefano Briccolani wrote:
What are the benefits of having Akiko in a system that have an RTG card?

Compatibility with the few CD³² titles that use Akiko for C2P.



Vojin Vidanovic
(Needs Verification)
Posts 1896/ 1
04 Mar 2020 17:08


Stefano Briccolani wrote:

What are the benefits of having Akiko in a system that have an RTG card?

Hardware c2p. A1200 Aikiko was suitable for 020, but CPU done c2p on 030+ would beat it.

If this beast has Aikiko en par with 080, non RTG titles can use c2p hw routines.

And some CD32 titles do need it. It extends CD32 compatibility to 100%, something that required software emulation even on A1200/A4000



Dma Con

Posts 16
04 Mar 2020 20:40


If Akiko is implemented, does it mean there is a plan to boot CD images?

Not sure if banging Akiko's external registers (even if the access speed can be made significantly faster on the V4 as the real chip) can have any significant speed benefit against performing the C2P on the Apollo Core.

On the other hand, the C2P functions are basically just a simple FIFO with bit reordering functionality.

Will this also find its way on the V1200?


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 5309
05 Mar 2020 10:21


Vojin Vidanovic wrote:

Stefano Briccolani wrote:

  What are the benefits of having Akiko in a system that have an RTG card?

 
Hardware c2p. A1200 Akiko was suitable for 020, but CPU done c2p on 030+ would beat it.

 

Many people talk nonsense about AKIKO.
Let us try to clear this up with facts.
 
AKIKO was the solution from Amiga Engineers for C2P.
AKIKO was designed to speed C2P up.
And it does this job very well.
 
AKIKO is on the mainboard of the CD32.
The C2P of AKIKO is done in combination with the CPU.
This means CPU feeds AKIKO, and AKIKO converts.
Its team work!
 
Some people claim that an 68030 CPU alone would be faster than AKIKO.
But this really true?
The truth is the combination CPU + AKIKO is often the fastest.
But for the team to work optimally the CPU card needs to have a really good businterface - to be able to talk to AKIKO without delays.
Many Amiga Turbocards have NOT an optimal Bus interface.
And this limits the ability to make the most out of AKIKO.
 
So the truth is NOT that "c2p on 030+ would beats it"
The truth is that many Amiga turbo cards are not perfect and their bus interface creates limits for them.

So if a CPU card vendor claims "My 68030 CPU is so fast it can C2P faster alone than with AKIKO"
Then this does not really mean his CPU card is very good.
It actually means his businface is not optimal.


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 5309
05 Mar 2020 10:43


DOOM with 48 FPS using AKIKO
 



Simo Koivukoski
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 600
05 Mar 2020 10:47


In a little more details, DoomAttack.040:

c2p_Akiko2: 48.6 PFS (SA_7376x12)
c2p_040: 48.6 FPS
c2p_Blitter: 11.5 FPS

Well optimized Gunnar!


Vojin Vidanovic
(Needs Verification)
Posts 1896/ 1
05 Mar 2020 11:07


Gunnar von Boehn wrote:

    So the truth is NOT that "c2p on 030+ would beats it"
    The truth is that many Amiga turbo cards are not perfect and their bus interface creates limits for them.
 

 
  All c2p real world tests (like yours) showed any expanded CD32
  has faster software c2p then with Aikiko.
 
  Surely, bus is bottleneck.
 
  Compliments for making Aikiko "040 fast" >:)
 
  I miss only speed (FPS) without using any c2p additions.
 
 
Gunnar von Boehn wrote:

  So if a CPU card vendor claims "My 68030 CPU is so fast it can C2P faster alone than with AKIKO"
  Then this does not really mean his CPU card is very good.
  It actually means his businface is not optimal.
 

 
  Even in given context, this does not sound right.

DMA CON wrote:

  Will this also find its way on the V1200?

Gunnar should answer, I believe its too early.

There is a space in V1200 (kind of "V3 core") but most valuable and not all V4 feats will be backported ONCE v4 core gets mature. Maybe later.


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 5309
05 Mar 2020 11:22


Vojin Vidanovic wrote:

     
Gunnar von Boehn wrote:

      So if a CPU card vendor claims "My 68030 CPU is so fast it can C2P faster alone than with AKIKO"
      Then this does not really mean his CPU card is very good.
      It actually means his businface is not optimal.
     

     
      Even in given context, this does not sound right.
 

 
Help me understand your sentence.
Do you understand and agree to my point that if CPU accelerator not manages to get the transfer optimally this shows this slowness.

This is actually all very simple math.
If the bus cycle the CPU card does is not optimally - then you bottleneck AKIKO.


Vojin Vidanovic
(Needs Verification)
Posts 1896/ 1
05 Mar 2020 11:31


Gunnar von Boehn wrote:

  This is actually all very simple math.
  If the bus cycle the CPU card does is not optimally - then you bottleneck AKIKO.

Surely, its bus dependent.

It sounded that you blame complete card as bad IF CPU card vendor claims it will be faster then 020 Aikiko. Its other way around.

IF he proves it can be done, card is good.

Lost in translation. Ich nicht sprahe Deustuch :)



Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 5309
05 Mar 2020 11:53


Vojin Vidanovic wrote:

  It sounded that you blame complete card as bad IF CPU card vendor claims it will be faster then 020 Aikiko. Its other way around.
 

 
The point is AKIKO is a helper like a "Bicycle".
So with a Bicycle you are generally faster than on foot on a long distance.
 
If now a guy claims "I'm is on foot much faster than on Bicycle"
this means really not he is a super runner but that he is to stupid to ride a bike.
 
 


Knight Stone

Posts 123
05 Mar 2020 11:59


Gunnar von Boehn wrote:

Vojin Vidanovic wrote:

  It sounded that you blame complete card as bad IF CPU card vendor claims it will be faster then 020 Aikiko. Its other way around.
 

 
  The point is AKIKO is a helper like a "Bicycle".
  So with a Bicycle you are generally faster than on foot on a long distance.
 
  If now a guy claims "I'm is on foot much faster than on Bicycle"
  this means really not he is a super runner but that he is to stupid to ride a bike.
 
 

hahahaha .... best explanation ever.

I want to ride my bicycle, i want to ride my bike ....



Allonsanfan %

Posts 57
05 Mar 2020 12:25


How about this analogy:

Humans have evolved to have wheels instead of legs (CPU's have become faster), but you still insist on riding a bicycle (Akiko).

I understand Akiko support from the POV of compatibility though. How does the Akiko implementation differ from AMMX/C2P?


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 5309
05 Mar 2020 12:57


Allonsanfan % wrote:

I understand Akiko support from the POV of compatibility though. How does the Akiko implementation differ from AMMX/C2P?

A CPU C2P routine does
1) LOAD of chunky data into the CPU,
2) 16 or so mathematical operations, /AND/OR/SHIFT...
3) STORE of planar data into chipmem for display.

A AKIKO C2P routine does
1) LOAD of chunky data into the CPU,
2) 1 WRITE and 1 READ to AKIKO
3) STORE of planar data into chipmem for display.

Technically AKIKO offloads the conversion operations for you.
If you bus interface has good speed then AKIKO will help you.

AMMX offers an C2P instruction which does the operation inside the CPU.



ExiE CZEX

Posts 48
05 Mar 2020 13:59


I understand what you are saying, it just makes no sense to me as a whole. AKIKO concept was cheap and dirty solution that turned out to be useless without FAST mem (fast mem would help much more in general)
So why waste time on AKIKO emulation? Is there really game that won't run w/o?


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 5309
05 Mar 2020 14:20


ExiE CZEX wrote:

I understand what you are saying, it just makes no sense to me as a whole. AKIKO concept was cheap and dirty solution that turned out to be useless without FAST mem (fast mem would help much more in general)
  So why waste time on AKIKO emulation? Is there really game that won't run w/o?

AKIKO is the last AMIGA chip which we not supported yet.
So we support this now. AMIGA is 100% complete :-)
AKIKO actually is not a stupid solution as a few might think.
AKIKO is actually good from design.
I think many people have an opinion about AKIKO without understanding much about the facts and details.

For is AKIKO is working now which means we can run CD32 games
and might also be able to turn an A1200+V1200 into a CD32.

As the chip is done, the only time I wast is now answered questions here :-)
 


Mr Niding

Posts 457
05 Mar 2020 14:58


Coming from a non-coder:

Will projects like Vladimir Repcak's 3d game effort be enhanced with AKIKO?


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 5309
05 Mar 2020 15:54


Mr Niding wrote:

Coming from a non-coder:
 
Will projects like Vladimir Repcak's 3d game effort be enhanced with AKIKO?

Normally not.

AKIKO enables you to display Chunky GFX on Planar screen.
This means you can benefit from the easier drawing in Chunky but use the AMIGA PLANAR planes.
If you have real chunky Display as in SAGA then you might easier just use SAGA.
So AKIKO has some use mainly for running a few CD32 titles.

Of course Chunky to Planar or reverse conversion is always needed under the hood. For example to display AMIGA PLANAR ICONS on an RTG Workbench - these icons need be converted by the OS. This could be done using AKIKO. There are more examples like this..
E.g. view IFF Images on a RTG workbench..
So some conversion does happen always.

There are some special cases like when you want to use combine Amiga Sprites with Copper and Chunky where AKIKO Conversion makes a lot of sense.


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