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Games Suited to Be Ported/developed for Vampirepage  1 2 3 

Olaf Schoenweiss

Posts 684
07 Oct 2020 12:17


I start this thread because there was a discussion about that. This thread is to discuss what games could be ported or new developed for Vampire including V4.


Amiga Noob

Posts 33
07 Oct 2020 13:00


Reply from the other thread.

Olaf Schoenweiss wrote:

modern smartphones have hardware like a PC a couple of years ago. Most Indy developers certainly use development environments that hide the low-level stuff and make it easier to support different platforms. Example is the known Unity (there are plenty of, both open source and commercial). Bigger companies have their own inhouse engine. If I develop games for living amiga certainly would be of no interest. We should be realistic here.

Yeah even smartphones are still beasts compared to Vampire. But I think smartphones are even harder to interface at the lower-level compared to PC. This could be an advantage of Vampire.

Bigger companies would definitely not program for Vampire(Unless the platform somehow becomes bigger). But for bedroom coders it might interested them. Hence why I linked the community in the other thread. I think most of them are young programmers who are at least interested on being aware on what hardware they program. Some of them will probably be interested on the Vampire because of its simplicity on interfacing with the hardware.

Saladriel Amrael wrote:

  The niche I see it for is 8-Early32 bit era modern gaming, meaning you can develop for it games that were plausible from early '80s to late '90s, mix-matching the vibes of both eras and having a native DIGITAL-VIDEO output.
  And that's good, looking at current days gaming trends
 

I recommended Hi-bit games since those games are trendy this days on the indie side. Maybe an Owlboy like game is possible since I don't see any modern lighting effects? I see high praise on that game because of how goods its pixel art is. I was kinda hoping that a game like Octopath Traveler will be possible but oh well.

Olaf Schoenweiss wrote:

there is certainly a market
 
  For example developer from old days who still have unpublished amiga games are announcing to publish them or even creating new games.
 
  Perhaps we can even motivate new developers to support vampire because they like the ideas behind. But it is still niche and market small compared to mainstream platforms including smartphones. It is a kind of hobby to support it (if ever), not if you need the money for living. Also there are software houses out there concentrating on retro platforms also announcing new games. I am not pessimistic at all, the amiga platform is showing much more activity today than f.e. a year ago.

I'm more of the latter than the former then. I do appreciate people who code on the limitations of the hardware and one of the reasons why I choose to develop for the Vampire in the future. But I plan to develop a hi-bit game and the Amiga seems to be an unrealistic platform to develop for.  Also Hi-bit games looks like sort of a new frontier and I think would benefit the Vampire(Hi-bit games possible on Vampire). Classic looking games/Ported games is somewhat boring to me to be honest, it somehow doesn't interest me much if a ported game like Quake runs faster on a Vampire compared to other Amiga because it doesn't removed the fact than it still will run faster on a PC.

So what got me planning to develop for Vampire in the future is simplicity as promoted by Apollo.

Also, by developing a Hi-bit game, it promotes the Vampire by:

1.) Hi-bit games cannot run on older Amigas.
2.) Low-level programming on a Hi-Bit game is easier compared to a PC.

I'm just assuming on number 2 here. I am still learning about programming a game engine in C and I still don't own any Vampire products to tell that it really is simpler.

Kamelito Loveless wrote:

  Let me guess Casey?

I'm learning how to code a game engine through Handmade Hero recently. Casey somewhat influence me to find a platform that is simple since he rants about modern PC's lol.



Amiga Noob

Posts 33
07 Oct 2020 13:12


Since I know there is a 3d accelerator being develop, maybe develop features of it that will be good for Hi-Bit games and that will be easy to program compared to modern GPU's. That could be another reason to attract developers.


Adam A

Posts 122
07 Oct 2020 13:12


What about remaking Amiga games with vampire capabilities?


Saladriel Amrael

Posts 160
07 Oct 2020 13:14


So, let's see
We have an HW that is capable of Running Diablo better than a P90 (with optimized code), and make Quake II barely playable (with non optimized code)

Even with this in mind, the area where V4 can really shine IMHO is the one of Pixel Graphic based games, with some fancy effects thrown here and there.

I love playing those kind of games on my PC or PS4, and sometimes I wonder what could be ported on a V4 within it's HW capabilities.

I've recently played "The Final Station", a sidescrolling survival horror with pixel graphix, smooth parallax effects, fancy skyline color gradings and all the fuss that once were part of Amiga sidescrolling games.
Here's a Longplay:
EXTERNAL LINK 
I think it is unrealistic to think the developers will put any effort in converting the game to V4, but IMHO it can be seen as something that can be achieved with the full version of Vampire

Olaf and Gunnar please correct me if it is too much to achieve, so we have a good comparison point




Saladriel Amrael

Posts 160
07 Oct 2020 13:17


Aldrin O. wrote:

Since I know there is a 3d accelerator being develop, maybe develop features of it that will be good for Hi-Bit games and that will be easy to program compared to modern GPU's. That could be another reason to attract developers.

In Italy we have a motto: "Never do the bill count without the Innkeeper".
Since we do not know (yet) if it will be developed and how powerful it will be, isn't it smarter to think about games that do not require 3D Acceleration?


Olaf Schoenweiss

Posts 684
07 Oct 2020 13:24


to me the requirements look relative low but certainly the developers involved would have to invest much time in optimizations (like it happened with Diablo). It requires 1 Ghz as minimum so I am not sure if that can be ported.


Amiga Noob

Posts 33
07 Oct 2020 13:29


Saladriel Amrael wrote:

So, let's see
  We have an HW that is capable of Running Diablo better than a P90 (with optimized code), and make Quake II barely playable (with non optimized code)
 
  Even with this in mind, the area where V4 can really shine IMHO is the one of Pixel Graphic based games, with some fancy effects thrown here and there.
 
  I love playing those kind of games on my PC or PS4, and sometimes I wonder what could be ported on a V4 within it's HW capabilities.
 
  I've recently played "The Final Station", a sidescrolling survival horror with pixel graphix, smooth parallax effects, fancy skyline color gradings and all the fuss that once were part of Amiga sidescrolling games.
  Here's a Longplay:
  EXTERNAL LINK 
  I think it is unrealistic to think the developers will put any effort in converting the game to V4, but IMHO it can be seen as something that can be achieved with the full version of Vampire
 
  Olaf and Gunnar please correct me if it is too much to achieve, so we have a good comparison point

I guess we agree on pixel graphics games with fancy effects will make Vampire shine only difference is I propose much fancier effects.

The only way I can think of that will have developers put effort on a V4 is if it really is simple to develop for. Since there's no tools that are as good as Unity(yet), then next step will be attracting low-level developers that it is simple to program compared to PC.


Saladriel Amrael

Posts 160
07 Oct 2020 13:34


IMHO a direct port of anything coming out today is impossible, even if it's a Bubble Bobble clone, due to the High Level engines and libraries involved.

What I'm talking about is writing down in V4 Assembly something similar


Olaf Schoenweiss

Posts 684
07 Oct 2020 13:41


there must be a amiga/vampire solution with adapted and special programmed games. For example having new versions of old games making use of the better hardware and having new graphics and better sound. There are also Retro software houses making software for different platforms. At least one announced a new Amiga game (AGA). Perhaps more is possible in future.
   
  That would be already a big improvement. If you look at the mainstream platforms you have a run to faster and bigger hardware. No chance to compete here. As I already wrote... some time ago I looked at the minimum requirements of new PC games. Most 8 GB RAM, i5 and seperate graphic card with 1 GB. I assume Pentium II games (200-400 Mhz) could be ported (with lots of work invested in optimizations).


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 5419
07 Oct 2020 14:50


Maybe it makes sense to look what Vampire offers

* Planar Amiga modes + Sprites + Copper
=> allows making Amiga games

* 256 Chunky Mode, 16bit Chunky mode, truecolor mode
=> as used in games as Diablo, Diablo2, Star Craft, Command & Conquer,  Age of Empires, Northland ...

* multichannel 8bit and 16bit audio

* CPU power equal to 800 MHz 68030 CPU
 
* extrem fast memory speed.

* 512 MB Ram

--

I think Vampire is very good for doing Jump and Runs games
or for 2D games like Age of Empire / Alpha Centauri / Star Craft / Dune 2000



Amiga Noob

Posts 33
07 Oct 2020 14:52


Adam  A wrote:

What about remaking Amiga games with vampire capabilities?

Olaf Schoenweiss wrote:

there must be a amiga/vampire solution with adapted and special programmed games. For example having new versions of old games making use of the better hardware and having new graphics and better sound. There are also Retro software houses making software for different platforms. At least one announced a new Amiga game (AGA). Perhaps more is possible in future.
     
    That would be already a big improvement. If you look at the mainstream platforms you have a run to faster and bigger hardware. No chance to compete here. As I already wrote... some time ago I looked at the minimum requirements of new PC games. Most 8 GB RAM, i5 and seperate graphic card with 1 GB. I assume Pentium II games (200-400 Mhz) could be ported (with lots of work invested in optimizations).

Remaking old games to use hardware features of Vampire is a good idea. Problem that I can think of is legality reasons(Needing to ask permission). Also, I think there are only a few Amiga programmers who will do it for Vampire specifically though, as I observed from scene, most want the retro feel, not really the NextGen Amiga feel.

More games is good for all Amiga I suppose but is an AGA game optimal in promoting Vampire? Maybe only a little since if it can run on AGA, then running it on Vampire will just look and feel the same. A Quake-like game will probably look different, but if it's a pixel art game then it probably will just be the same unless developer purposely do vampire-only effects feature. On top of that, there may be a possibility that a game will be buggy when executed on a Vampire which can be detrimental.

Porting Pentium 2 games on Vampire might be detrimental? The way I see it is that a PC troll would say: "You do all that optimization stuff just to run it on a Vampire? It might show that this game can run on Vampire than other Amiga, but that game is coded simpler on a PC and will run the same or even faster on a PC". There would probably be praise on how amazing the coder is, but I do not know for the hardware.

There needs to be a game that shows advantage of V4 over PC. Not through raw power of course.



Saladriel Amrael

Posts 160
07 Oct 2020 15:13


That is exactly why I was suggesting low-tier but modern games to be ported or used as an example.
 
  Let's say that we contact the programmers of "The Final Station", Volgarr the Viking or "Aeons of Sands" and they agree to port their game on Vamp.
 
  Now you have a modern "Retro Like" game that runs on a smaller and less power consuming piece of hardware that you can put in a small box and bring to your friend's home, in vacation or in your job-travel and play it in the lonely hotel evenings.
This is just a theoretical example, I know it would near to impossible to convince those developers, it is an example to show the importance to have at least a couple of games that resembles modern retro style games that come out nowdays on PC/PS4
 
  From the developer's point of view it's hard: you have to use low level languages (Assembly and C) to push the HW and you must have a deep knowledge of the HW itself, something that is not as common as 30 years ago among game developers.
  This is why a complete documentation and set of tutorials is higly needed in order to form new developers
 
 
 
 


Amiga Noob

Posts 33
07 Oct 2020 16:13


Saladriel Amrael wrote:

That is exactly why I was suggesting low-tier but modern games to be ported or used as an example.
 
  Let's say that we contact the programmers of "The Final Station", Volgarr the Viking or "Aeons of Sands" and they agree to port their game on Vamp.
 
  Now you have a modern "Retro Like" game that runs on a smaller and less power consuming piece of hardware that you can put in a small box and bring to your friend's home, in vacation or in your job-travel and play it in the lonely hotel evenings.
  This is just a theoretical example, I know it would near to impossible to convince those developers, it is an example to show the importance to have at least a couple of games that resembles modern retro style games that come out nowdays on PC/PS4

With that example, an argument could be made on why not just buy a RockPI(x86 SOC), GPD Win(1/2/Max), or some other x86 portable/semi-portable machines.

Instead of porting, which can have the bad side of people comparing between platforms, kind of like Amiga and Atari-ST game comparisons. Much better to create a new game for the Vampire. Could still be the retro-like modern game as you said.

Saladriel Amrael wrote:

  From the developer's point of view it's hard: you have to use low level languages (Assembly and C) to push the HW and you must have a deep knowledge of the HW itself, something that is not as common as 30 years ago among game developers.
  This is why a complete documentation and set of tutorials is higly needed in order to form new developers

I totally agree here, I hope by the time I order a V4 next year and hopefully also receive it next year, there would be documentations on how to code for it. It will be better than reading the Amiga Hardware Reference Manual and Motorola 68k manual(knowing that the manuals are for inferior 68k and chipset) and then adapting what you've learn in the Vampire instead of learning straight from Vampire Hardware.

As I implied in my posts, one advantage of the Vampire over PC is its simplicity over PC in terms of low-level programming(as said by Apollo Team), once documentations are made, it can attract those developers who are interested on low-level programming.

One advantage of going low-level is not being limited on game ideas because of the tools used. If Apollo Team can make low-level programming easier compared to modern PC, that IMO would be a good legup in competing against PC.


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 5419
07 Oct 2020 17:01


My personal opinion is, that 68000 was a very nice CPU to code for.
I think the 68k CPU is major part of the reason why the demo scene was so active on Atari and Amiga. Also many Arcade machines did use 68K for the same reason. Coding on 68K is simply nice.
 
I can imagine that experienced 68k will find the Vampire nice to use as it provides the nice 68k instruction set and at the same time it removed some limitations - making coding and developing easier.
 
I'm not really convinced that PC coders which never used the 68k before will be interested in coding for Amiga.

But I can see already see that some Vampire/Amiga users start coding for Vampire and some Vampire only games are coming out now.
 
This is one example:
  EXTERNAL LINK


Boban Krsmanovic

Posts 9
07 Oct 2020 17:41


It would be great to see exclusive Vampire games, indeed. :)

What do you guys think, would games like Summoner:
EXTERNAL LINK 
Or Gothic:
EXTERNAL LINK 
Would be possible for Vampires?

It's the era of 1999-2001 3D games.
Maybe Warcfaft 3?




Roy Gillotti

Posts 474
07 Oct 2020 18:15


@Boban having the source code is important beginning to any kind of project.

A quick search of Summoner didn't really return any open source project for the game.

Gothic has a few open source implementations that could be a start to an Amiga port, It would likely require a lot of work as these are heavily 3D based games. maybe if they can run at a 320x240 resolution and a TON of optimization.


Amiga Noob

Posts 33
07 Oct 2020 18:22


Gunnar von Boehn wrote:

My personal opinion is, that 68000 was a very nice CPU to code for.
  I think the 68k CPU is major part of the reason why the demo scene was so active on Atari and Amiga. Also many Arcade machines did use 68K for the same reason. Coding on 68K is simply nice.
 
  I can imagine that experienced 68k will find the Vampire nice to use as it provides the nice 68k instruction set and at the same time it removed some limitations - making coding and developing easier.
 
  I'm not really convinced that PC coders which never used the 68k before will be interested in coding for Amiga.
 
  But I can see already see that some Vampire/Amiga users start coding for Vampire and some Vampire only games are coming out now.
 
  This is one example:
  EXTERNAL LINK 

That somewhat shatters my idea of x86 coders moving to 68k then lol. But I've been reading how x86 assembly is not fun compared to 68k, if it is not that convincing enough, then maybe SAGA chipset(easier to code than modern GPU mabye?) and AmigaOS/AROS(simpler to interface than Windows/Linux maybe?) would be convincing. So holistically, all this things might entice PC coders as long as their planned software to develop can be handled by a Vampire e.g Pixel art games with fancy effects.

Most PC coders don't do low-level stuff, but maybe for the low-level programmers it will interest them. When I say low-level not just the assembly guys, even the C programmers who can read assembly. So maybe convinced C programmers to program in 68k since it is actually fun.

I don't think there's anything to lose promoting Vampire outside Amiga programmers(I'm assuming it wasn't promoted outside Amiga community).

If only experienced 68k coders are targeted, then definitely only a few people would be interested in the Vampire. I observed most just stick to their Amigas, I haven't even seen a Vampire specific demo, I do read somewhere that someone made a demo for it though.

Regarding the link. I have been following that game. It's a good looking game and probably would be successful in the Vampire scene since only a few develop for the Vampire.

Anyway, I think there is nothing to lose demonstrating Vampire to low-level PC coders.




Amiga Noob

Posts 33
07 Oct 2020 18:42


Boban Krsmanovic wrote:

  It would be great to see exclusive Vampire games, indeed. :)
   
    What do you guys think, would games like Summoner:
    EXTERNAL LINK   
    Or Gothic:
    EXTERNAL LINK   
    Would be possible for Vampires?
   
    It's the era of 1999-2001 3D games.
    Maybe Warcfaft 3?
   
   
 

 
  Those games would amaze the Amiga Scene or coders I guess if it's ported on the Vampire, but not for the common user of PC IMO.
 
  Reason why I recommended "Hi-bit" games is that IMO 2D games age better than 3D(Not saying 2D doesn't age). Show someone a game of Turrican 2 and most will not comment about how old its graphics are and might even praised it. Show someone a PS1 3D game and most people will comment on how 3D graphics evolved. With Hi-bit, it can be a combination of 2D pixel art, with some modern effects sprinkled in. Graphics is not what just make a game of course, gameplay is more of a factor to consider.
 
  What my point is just that kind of 3D graphics doesn't tell me that Vampire could at least compete with PC. But again, not saying that graphics is the number 1 factor that makes a game. If that's the case then Fortnite and Among Us wouldn't be popular games.

If someone really wants to make a 3D game for the Vampire though, I suggest a Non-photorealistic rendering game instead, So that it at least doesn't look like it can be compared to most 3D games which go for photorealistic rendering.
 


Boban Krsmanovic

Posts 9
07 Oct 2020 22:06


Roy Gillotti wrote:

@Boban having the source code is important beginning to any kind of project.

Thanks.
I wasn't thinking about ports (though, it would be amazing :) ).
I was just asking if you guys think the hardware is capable for these sorts of games.
I guess it is. :)

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