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Information to Amikitpage  1 2 3 4 5 

Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 5419
13 Dec 2020 20:22


We inform you that currently,  the Amikit distribution does not work on the Vampire V4.
This is not a bug on V4 but a partition recognition problem, due to the use of FAT partitions which are treated differently by the Aros ROM than by the AmigaOS ROM.

We have forwarded all necessary changes to this distribution to its author so that he can make the necessary corrections.

We hope he puts them into practice as soon as possible.



Jan Zah

Posts 4
14 Dec 2020 06:10


AmiKit works on Vampire V4 just fine (in fact, AmiKit for Vampire was created using the V4SA machine).

With AmigaOS ROM in core the AmiKit CompactFlash card works perfectly fine too.

It is the AROS ROM that needs to be fixed here, not AmiKit. AmiKit is fully AmigaOS compatible and it always was.

Since Apollo decided to use AROM ROM in their cores instead, they made their Vampire V4 product less AmigaOS compatible as well.

Therefore I strongly believe it is up to Apollo to make any necessary changes here so that their product is more Amiga compatible.


Bartek Kuchta

Posts 37
14 Dec 2020 12:42


Dear Jan,

Thank you for AmiKit and Vampire version! I strongly appreciate your hard work.

As a V4 user I would love to be able to use AmiKit with my stock V4 (with AROS ROM).

My impression is that fixing ROM compatibility might take some time, since this work continues for the last few years and unfortunately not a task done overnight;)

Yet I noticed that excellent  Willem Drijver V4 bootloader and ApolloOS works great with AROS ROM already probably thanks to their advanced partitioning! And I wonder what is stopping AmiKit to use this method?

Could you please try to update AmiKit partition recognition using Willem and ApollOS solution?

Kind Regards,

Bartek


Ian Parsons

Posts 226
14 Dec 2020 13:06


I don't get why there are any FAT partitions on the V4SA version. If users want to easily move files between the V4 and a PC can't they just use the microSD Card port rather than the internal boot device?


Stefano Briccolani

Posts 577
14 Dec 2020 13:40


The fat partition was made for putting the system files required without having to deal with winuae. Is a smart idea for an easier install of amikit.


Willem Drijver
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 101
14 Dec 2020 17:15


Best solution for V4 users running on AROS based Cores is not to go with the physical CF-Card, but use the LZX-version to create own dedicated AmiKIT CF-card (or AmiKit Partition on multi boot CF-Card if you use V4BL). Then the whole "FAT partition" issue is not applicable at all and AmiKit runs fine. If you run V4 with Amiga OS based Core then also the AmiKit CF-Card runs OK.


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 5419
14 Dec 2020 21:39


Dear Jan,

V4 is not provided with AmigaOS ROM but AROS ROM.
Any product that claims to be V4-compatible needs to work with AROS ROM. We believe that it is unfair to our customers to sell them a CF card that doesn't work on stock V4, but advertise it by saying that "while AmiKit works fine on V4SA ... newer cores might require some tweaking".

That is why we currently cannot recommend AmiKit for V4 SA users until the partitioning is updated and boots on stock V4 with AROS ROM.

Please remove this information from your website as this is not true: "The only way is to use a core with AmigaOS ROM included (not AROS). Contact Apollo team to obtain such core version."

Also please do not send your customers to Apollo Team regarding your product, unless you want the Apollo Team to take over development and sales of AmiKit for V4?

Since AROS Kickstart ROM included with V4SA cores IS PERFECTLY able to boot cards with multiple filesystems (apart from unprofessionally partitioned cards), please remove this incorrect information from your website:

"IMPORTANT NOTE: Since the AROS Kickstart ROM included with V4SA cores is not able to boot cards with multiple filesystems (such as AmiKit CF card), you need the AmigaOS Kickstart ROM to do the job instead." (https://www.amikit.amiga.sk/v4coresupport)

If AmiKit is only AmigaOS-ROM-compatible than should be advertised as such and not V4 compatible until the partition layout is changed.
To AmiKit work back again on V4 properly the fastest and easiest fix is to partition the CF card correctly.

Apollo Team already provided a solution to you and yesterday we've send you the solution again.

You said that you will try it out.
We are looking forward to it.

Kind Regards,
Apollo Team


Renaud Schweingruber
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 355
15 Dec 2020 08:30


Best and easiest way to enjoy AmiKit on V4 is by using V4BootLoader from Willem which is configured correctly to match AROS partition mechanisms.

I'm pretty sure it is a couple of minute job to get the AmiKit CF back on track with matching partitioning for AROS.


Michal Pietal

Posts 223
15 Dec 2020 08:42


Renaud Schweingruber wrote:

Best and easiest way to enjoy AmiKit on V4 is by using V4BootLoader from Willem which is configured correctly to match AROS partition mechanisms.

I was just about to write that this problem does not concern V4BL users.

And it's a free solution!


Stefano Briccolani

Posts 577
15 Dec 2020 08:48


But the load of kickstart-rom from SD card at boot (kick.rom) doesn't work anymore on v4? This will solve the Amikit CF boot problem, I think..


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 5419
15 Dec 2020 09:57


Let us clarify something:
 
All Vampire4 will be shipped with AROS roms, this is not a new information.
 
The Apollo-Teams focus is AROS. I think everybody should know this.
Lets not forget that this was announced and communicated long time before the first V4 was even sold.
 
Also on Amiga34 event, which was the point where Amikit got their V4 in October 2019, it was already absolutely clearly stated that AROS is the way.
 
 
So is clear, that the V4 comes with Aros roms.
This is not a surprise and Amikit knew this from day 1. (since over 1 year)
 
 
Stefano Briccolani wrote:

the load of kickstart-rom from SD card at boot 

Let us understand what this means.
This means a debug feature to load a different kick was used.
This means the boot is slow, and that the SDcard port is blocked.

But the main purpose of the SDCard port is to provide user was easy and simple data-exchange port. This port is hereby limited and the system will fail to boot if the SDcard is removed.
 
For sure the Debug-boot option is valuable for kernel testing.
But using it as a daily boot method is not clever.
This solution is a lot slower than booting the CF directly and its limiting the user.
 
Direct booting the CF would be possible with just a small correction of the Amikit partition layout - this could have been done in minutes.
 
I think that the goal should be the best solution for the users. This debug boot is maybe the most laziest solution but certainly not the best for the users.
 



Jan Zah

Posts 4
15 Dec 2020 18:27


Dear Gunnar,

I bought your Vampire V4 Standalone with AmigaOS ROM core. And I made AmiKit for it.

Meanwhile you switched to less compatible AROS cores. I tried to catch up hard. You even promised to send me a new core a few days before its release so I could test it with AmiKit. You never sent anything.

I had to catch up again. I even created the V4CoreSupport page where I explained how to run AmiKit on the latest V4 cores and I provided all necessary install files there too.

Since the AROS ROM (unlike AmigaOS) was not able to boot my CF card, the solution relied on the BootSD feature of V4SA that maps AmigaOS ROM from SD card (and thus replaces the AROS one in the core).

To my big surprise, you removed the BootSD feature from the latest R4 core. Despite I was promised that I will get the core in advance, I got nothing. Again.

Later I talked to you about the situation. I explained that my CF cards are already pressed and I cannot alter their partitions anymore. I stressed that they all work with AmigaOS ROM but not with AROS ROM. We agreed that YOU are going to look at the problem. I hoped that you can make the AROS ROM more compatible with AmigaOS. I couldn't have been more wrong, though.

Just few weeks later, to my even bigger surprise, and despite our previous agreement, you started to defame me and my product publicly. Your communication was anything but polite and professional. On top of that, you started this thread and claimed that AmiKit doesn't work on V4SA and that it is up to ME to fix it. Wow.

To make the long story short. AmiKit XE works on Vampire V4 Standalone just fine. If the original AmiKit CF card doesn't boot, it's because of the incompatible V4SA AROS core. In that case a core with AmigaOS ROM is required. It's simple as that. No flame wars are required.

What's beyond my understanding, though, is the fact that instead of pursuing a better AmigaOS compatibility of your product, you push others to alter their Amiga products to your specific V4SA AROS needs. You know, even if I comply this time and make such alterations, I am afraid that sooner or later you change something in V4SA again (Atari ROM?) and I will be forced to start over... Again and again.

No, I don't need such unnecessary stress, really. Despite the fact that V4SA is currently advertised as the "most advanced Amiga ever", I'll better wait till it is really finished and fully compatible with AmigaOS we all know and love.

Meanwhile AmiKit will support Vampire V2-enhanced Amiga computers only.

Thanks and good luck with your V4SA!
Jan


Vojin Vidanovic
(Needs Verification)
Posts 1896/ 1
15 Dec 2020 18:34


Sorry to interrupt, in this "chicken or egg situation" could not both path be perused:
 
  a) AROS ROM can be improved, as it was before. So with some additional love V4SA AROS ROM could be fixed to boot current pressed AmiKit release
 
  b) Future "AmiKit V4" could support V4 partition needs or detect AROS ROM or have separete line of cards on V4 AROS ROM bootable format?
 
  c) Current AmiKit page could offer all mentioned solutions:
 
  Manual creation guide from LZX archive for V4SA users
  Link to get AmigaOS V4 SA core (Gunnar should provide that) that is possible insta solution / and warnings if any other V4SA functionality is lost.
 
  AmiKit is great product and much love was put to a Vampire version, it would be sad to "let it go now" just because default AROS distro is in development.
 
  More options for power users, the merrier.

AROS path is understandable, as independence and freedom from current AmigaOS holders, but not at price of sacrificing everything good, including AmiKit.


Bartek Kuchta

Posts 37
15 Dec 2020 19:14


Hmm, I think we have been here before:) When Amiga 1200/4000 were released!

Imagine if a developer would advertise a product that runs only with A500 Kickstart 1.3 as A4000 compatible, is it reasonable for him to demand from Jay Miner and Amiga Team to provide 'necessary changes' to A4000 ROM?

Or shall that developer simply update his incompatible software that works only with older ROM versions?

What do you think?


Vojin Vidanovic
(Needs Verification)
Posts 1896/ 1
15 Dec 2020 19:23


Bartek Kuchta wrote:

  Or shall that developer simply update his incompatible software that works only with older ROM versions?
 
  What do you think?
 

 
  Similar situations happened before in Amiga world, true.
 
  I am on Jans side since V4 ROM has been changed and its possible to alter it. And V4 is evolving product, not AmiKit.
 
  Surely in the future, as he has V4, he can adopt, but he is weaker side here, since he cannot change the imprinted product, that simple.

As an opposite example in similar situation, when Indivisions were Vampire incompatible, initial Apollo stance was that hw manufacturer Indivision, should adjust its software, but it did not happen. They exchanged relevant info and ended in Apollo team issuing sw patch on Aminet that fixed the issue.


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 5419
15 Dec 2020 19:35


Vojin Vidanovic wrote:

I am on Jans side since V4 ROM has been changed

   
Fact is that V4 was since over 14 month sold with AROS rom.
That V4 uses AROS roms was case before Jan started to work on Amikit for V4. So all your V4 customers have per default an AROS rom.
Making AMIKIT boot with AROS rom would have been possible - even 1 year ago.
 
Jam, you told me you not want to fix this.
OK, this is of course your decision.
   
 
What I not understand is that you give people on purpose CF they can not use.
 
Several V4 owners reported that you sold them Amikit CF - which they can not use.
 
 
Please help us understand, why do you do this?
You knew that the CF will NOT work for the people and will give them problems.
I can not understand to sell people non working CF - when you are fully aware in advance that it will not work for the people!

This only gives people problems.
Can you help me understand what kind of moral this is?


Pitteloud Stephane
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 64
15 Dec 2020 19:42


there is no need to choose one side. The actual situation is pretty simple and there is no need to fight:

1. the V4 use AROS rom and will use AROS rom in the future too
2. this is not new
3. we are not talking here of an incompatibility of the AROS rom, but of an additional functionality of the Aros ROM: Aros ROM is capable of booting a FAT32 partition while AmigaOS ROM ignores it altogether.

The question that arises is then: should the Aros ROM be altered to remove this possibility to recognise a FAT partition in order to allow Amikit to boot as is so that Jan does not need to rewrite his CF cards, or 'it is better to modify the partition scheme of the Amikit CF, as do all the other distributions compatible with the V4, so that it takes into account this functionality of the Aros ROM?

Seen like this, I think the answer is obvious.

In Jan's message I see this:

"I explained that my CF cards are already pressed and I cannot alter their partitions anymore."

but he asks for a modification of the Aros ROM.

My question is: what takes the most time and resources: repartition a CF and rewrite the images, or modify a ROM that has been around for several years?



Vojin Vidanovic
(Needs Verification)
Posts 1896/ 1
15 Dec 2020 19:46


Gunnar von Boehn wrote:

    What kind of moral is this?
 

 
  Instead of blame, best is solution that is win win for users.
 
  as far as I remember there was a big marker that AmiKit is beta on V4. Now page clearly states "Which Vampires are supported?
  AmiKit XE works with any Amiga™ computer equipped with Apollo Vampire V2 card."
 
 
  Vampire version is fully V4 compatible, but its AROS ROM that cannot boot the card, so looking at the root of problem, it comes back to V4 ROM.
 
  Is it that hard to fix the ROM, knowing it roots as AmigaROS replacement, it was always a bit incompatible?
 
  Is it possible to provide AmigaOS compatible ROM, as with V2, that gives instant solution? There might other incompatibilities that arise with AROS ROM, too. Users could flash per needs.
 
  Holding the other key, but not providing it, isnt highly moral either.
 
 
Pitteloud Stephane wrote:

  My question is: what takes the most time and resources: repartition a CF and rewrite the images, or modify a ROM that has been around for several years?
 

 
  Alredy sold images cannot be rewritten. Here LZX download instead should be offered to customers, alongside guide how to make FAT16 partitions from AmigaOS or ApolloOS and extract AmiKit there.
 
  Surely, future editions can be repartitioned to FAT16/32 *would be needed to be branded as AmiKit V4 as they would not be V2 compatibile, and its nice to be able to boot non AmigaOS partitions, but why then booting perfectly bootable AmigaOS image was lost?
 


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 5419
15 Dec 2020 19:56


Vojin Vidanovic wrote:

 
Gunnar von Boehn wrote:

    What kind of moral is this?
 

   
  Instead of blame, best is solution that is win win for users.
 

 
Fact is, fixing Amikit partitions would have taken only minutes.
We did spend here 100 times more time to talk about it than fixing the partitions would have taken.
 
Jan made it clear that he just not wants to fix it.
 
What I find unmoral is to sell unaware people a nonworking CF.
And Jan's claims on his Website that "Aros Rom is not able to work with FAT partitions" is simply not correct and not true.

 


Pitteloud Stephane
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 64
15 Dec 2020 20:09


Vojin Vidanovic wrote:

   
    Is it that hard to fix the ROM, knowing it roots as AmigaROS replacement, it was always a bit incompatible?
   
 
 


Being able to boot a FAT partition is not a bug but a feature, and therfore don't have  have to be "fixed"



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