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Questions and Answers for AMIGA Workbench or Coffin

Is There a Script to Upgrade CoffinOS to 3.1.4?page  1 2 

Michael Farrell

Posts 11
13 Jan 2020 21:29


Like the title says.

Is there an official way to upgrade coffin to 3.1.4?

I tried the upgrade script on Aminet, and it seems to work, but it asks me about a few assigns, and the ram disk disappears every few seconds!


Kyle Blake
(Needs Verification)
Posts 108/ 1
14 Jan 2020 03:16


This is the problem with workbench packs. They're fine if you leave them alone, but as soon as you want to change something you end up hitting a landmine. They never explain what they've changed.

Personally I'd start from scratch, a 3.9 install with 3.1.4 over it, then customise it to what you want yourself. Then you know how everything works and can't have nasty surprises anymore.


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 4733
14 Jan 2020 10:37


Michael Farrell wrote:

Like the title says.
   
Is there an official way to upgrade coffin to 3.1.4?

 
Maybe the title is little incorrect,
technically from 3.9 with patches and fixes to 3.1.4 its NOT really an upgrade but in several ways a downgrade.
 
I personally would not recommend to do it.




Michael Farrell

Posts 11
14 Jan 2020 20:28


Ah, ok.

Well, the reason I asked is, I own a license for 3.1.4, but not 3.9.

And, it seems, there will be a 3.2!
Which, hopefully, will be better again :)

Gunnar, anything in particular that is better in 3.9?




Kyle Blake
(Needs Verification)
Posts 108/ 1
15 Jan 2020 07:02


Gunnar von Boehn wrote:

   
  Maybe the title is little incorrect,
  technically from 3.9 with patches and fixes to 3.1.4 its NOT really an upgrade but in several ways a downgrade.
 
  I personally would not recommend to do it.

That's not entirely true, not the way he's using it.

Despite the version number, 3.1.4 is actually built from 3.9 source. All the parts behave like 3.9 but with bugfixes and even some small extra features.

What's missing is the extra stuff, like Amidock, Amplifier, glowicons. Stuff that isn't part of AmigaOS but was included in 3.9 to pad it out.

So if you use the 3.1.4 over 3.9 script then you have a bugfixed 3.9.


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 4733
15 Jan 2020 07:13


Michael Farrell wrote:

Gunnar, anything in particular that is better in 3.9?

 
The naming basically tells it already.
 
3.1 was an improvement to 3.0
3.5 did improve 3.1
3.9 did improve 3.9
and the boing bags added on this on top
..
 
Many years of development and testing went into OS 3.9
Also OS 3.9 was not just the kickstart but a complete OS with added lots of useful programs like: email-program, network stack, web-browser, video player, lots of useful tools.
 
 
Kick 3.1.4 does not continue this development.
 
As you know Kick 3.1.4 is done by a different company
which has no access to all the previous development.
This means that 3.1.4 does re-invent the wheel,
and is an effort to do again some of the work which was done before.
 
Now with OS 3.9 you get not only the Kickstart but also many tools and programs which are well tested with it. And I think all the programs on Coffin are also very well tested with this setup.
 
If you now "replace" the basement of this complete construct
with a different basement done by a different company
which is not based on the same - what can you expect?

I'm sure everyone know that saying "never change a running system".
Years of testing went in OS 3.9 and in Coffin.
Os 3.1.4 is just to fresh to have this testing.


Nixus Minimax

Posts 415
15 Jan 2020 08:02


Kyle Blake wrote:

  Despite the version number, 3.1.4 is actually built from 3.9 source.

No. Haage&Partner have the rights to 3.9 but are not interested in maintaining or improving it because of some legal battles with Hyperion they had many years ago. This is why Olsen, ThoR & Co started from 3.1, cleaned it up and now are working to a) bugfix long standing bugs in 3.1 (some of which may have been fixed before in 3.5 and 3.9, some not) and b) do moderate improvements and additions. The goal may be to some day equal or surpass 3.9 but that is not the case. There probably are some things that will work better in 3.1.4 or 3.2 than in 3.9 because they were fixed now and overlooked in 3.5 and 3.9 but I think those are very small things that affect few people. I mean, how severe can a bug be that has been present since 1994 and which we cannot name without thinking hard about it? On the other hand, 3.1.4 had a very severe new bug related to error code handling of the shell so they do come up with very fresh and exciting new bugs...



Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 4733
15 Jan 2020 08:23


Kyle Blake wrote:

  Despite the version number, 3.1.4 is actually built from 3.9 source.
  So if you use the 3.1.4 over 3.9 script then you have a bugfixed 3.9.
 

       
You got this wrong. Who told you this?
Hyperion does not have access to Haage & Partners 3.9 IP.

If 3.1.4 would have been build from 3.9 sources then 3.1.4 would be highly illegal!
     
   
The truth is that : 3.1.4 is based on 3.1 and not based on 3.9
Both 3.9 and 3.1.4 might share some 3rd party work/fixes.
       
But except those 3rd party items it generally means that the development and testing which went into 3.5 and 3.9, is first of all lost.
 
3.1.4 is new fork based on 3.1 sources - it is not based on the code of 3.9. And 3.1.4 is definitely NOT a bug fixed 3.9
   
This does not meant that 3.1.4 is bad but it means its not a continuing of 3.9.
 
One thing is clear OS 3.5, 3.9 had a lot more time and a lot more users to test it - this means 3.1.4 can today not be on an equal testing level to 3.9.
If 3.1.4 development continues some more years and matures more it can definitely be good.
 


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 4733
15 Jan 2020 10:15


AMIGA OS is very modular.

This means you have libraries, which can be exchanged or upgraded
and you also have device drivers, datatypes and other elements which act as parts of the OS, providing features like mpeg decoding or Icon display, or Requesters, or GUI element upgrades, or new file systems.
All this together with tools makes then your OS Workbench.
The modern name used for this is "Distro".

A lot of these element can be found in AMINET.
But you need be careful here as all these pieces and be found in different versions - and there are also compatibility issues.

OS 3.9 did a good job to build such a Distro with parts and pieces all matching and tested together.
Coffin does the same - all pieces are configured and tested together.

Also the AROS distribution follows the same concept you have not only the OS kernel but also libraries, and tools, and many more good items and all are tested together well.
 
Such a distros contains many elements and pieces and as not all available pieces in the internet will always work in harmony-
Therefore a big part of the polishment of such distro is the testing and making sure all patches and pieces work well together.

Mixing two different distros light heartily just like that is very risky and calls of incompatibility issues - I would definitely not do this.



Kyle Blake
(Needs Verification)
Posts 108/ 1
15 Jan 2020 11:22


Gunnar von Boehn wrote:

     
Kyle Blake wrote:

          Despite the version number, 3.1.4 is actually built from 3.9 source.
          So if you use the 3.1.4 over 3.9 script then you have a bugfixed 3.9.
       

             
        You got this wrong. Who told you this?
        Hyperion does not have access to Haage & Partners 3.9 IP.
       
        If 3.1.4 would have been build from 3.9 sources then 3.1.4 would be highly illegal!
             
           
        The truth is that : 3.1.4 is based on 3.1 and not based on 3.9
        Both 3.9 and 3.1.4 might share some 3rd party work/fixes.
             
        But except those 3rd party items it generally means that the development and testing which went into 3.5 and 3.9, is first of all lost.
         
        3.1.4 is new fork based on 3.1 sources - it is not based on the code of 3.9. And 3.1.4 is definitely NOT a bug fixed 3.9
         
        This does not meant that 3.1.4 is bad but it means its not a continuing of 3.9.
       
        One thing is clear OS 3.5, 3.9 had a lot more time and a lot more users to test it - this means 3.1.4 can today not be on an equal testing level to 3.9.
        If 3.1.4 development continues some more years and matures more it can definitely be good.
         
     

     
    I can prove what I said, 3.1.4 is built from 3.9 source code.
   
    It's obvious when you install it and see workbench has the same featureset as 3.9, and knowing Thor and Olaf worked on 3.9, that they used the code.
   
    But duplucated functionality is circumstantinal right? They could've rewritten it again? Some benefit of doubt there?
   
    No, Thomas admits it over on Amiga.org, in a discussion about scsi.device support for 4 way adapters. scsi.device source code is from 3.9 and it's secret atapiismajik feature still works in 3.1.4.
   
        https://forum.amiga.org/index.php?topic=74270.msg846822#msg846822
     
 
  He even quotes comments left from 3.9 developers still in 3.1.4 scsi.device source, explicitly saying H&P:
 
 

    ; This is a little hack that makes things a lot easier for
                  ; me. Due to commercial/support issues, H&P/Olli Kastl do not want
                  ; to have 4way support enabled. It may come in handy for me though,
                  ; so I do this little magic stunt

 
      Now you can say it's technically illegal for Thor and Olaf to reuse code from a fork H&P own, even if they worked on it for H&P in the first place. I agree that in a strict interpretation of the law that would be true.
     
      But this is Hyperion we're talking about. They already do illegal stuff and get sued all the time. So obviously when it comes to make a new OS3 release, Thomas just uses the same code he had a copy of for 20 years already, instead of starting all over again.

If you want to be very strict about the law, it's a bad idea for anyone who worked and seen H&P source code to work on 3.1.4, because even if they wrote functionally equivalent code from scratch, it isn't clean-room. But here Thomas is, doing it anyway.


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 4733
15 Jan 2020 11:54


Kyle Blake wrote:

  But this is Hyperion we're talking about.
  They already do illegal stuff and get sued all the time.
  So obviously when it comes to make a new OS3 release, Thomas just uses the same code he had a copy of for 20 years again.
 

 
What you are saying would mean that OS 3.1.4 is 100% illegal.
 
I doubt this.
 
While I don't know if Hyperion legally own OS 3.1.
I'm very sure that Thomas Richter did follow the law
and only used OS 3.1 sources as basis
or patches/sources for which he got clear permission to use.
I'm certain that for all pieces where he got no permission
he left them out or tried to write similar stuff again from scratch.
 
 


Kyle Blake
(Needs Verification)
Posts 108/ 1
15 Jan 2020 12:05


Gunnar von Boehn wrote:

       
Kyle Blake wrote:

          But this is Hyperion we're talking about.
          They already do illegal stuff and get sued all the time.
          So obviously when it comes to make a new OS3 release, Thomas just uses the same code he had a copy of for 20 years again.
         

         
          What you are saying would mean that OS 3.1.4 is 100% illegal.
         
          I doubt this.
         
          While I don't know if Hyperion legally own OS 3.1.
          I'm very sure that Thomas Richter did follow the law
          and only used OS 3.1 sources as basis
          or patches/sources for which he got clear permission to use.
          I'm certain that for all pieces where he got no permission
          he left them out or wrote similar stuff again from scratch.
         
         
       

       
        you have 100% admitted evidence that scsi.library is built from 3.9 source. So the simple question "is 3.1.4 made with 3.9 source" is yes. Thomas quotes the code documentation which talks about H&P's decisions, and talks about it in the sense that it's code from H&P that he wasn't involved in writing.
             
        If you really want to investigate legal path of this 3.9 code in 3.1.4 you also have to look at what Amiga Inc's ownership of that code was.
     
    Hyperion were never allowed to say they was making a continuation of 3.9, but if the source code belongs to Amiga Inc instead of H&P then there's nothing stopping them to make something with it. Ownership of 3.9 completed product is a different thing than ownership of materials used to make it.
 
  I don't have a copy of the contract between H&P and Amiga Inc to check who owns source code.
 
  Personally I don't think the legal situation is very important at all.


Nixus Minimax

Posts 415
15 Jan 2020 12:43


For all I know the stuff that went into 3.9 came from many sources, not exclusively from Haage&Partner. ThoR himself contributed some stuff without passing on the rights to his contributions. I think some or perhaps even all of these contributions are also available from aminet. Hence, he could just put the same code into 3.1.4. It is also true that 3.1.4 tries to reimplement some of the stuff that is in 3.9 but to which they have no rights (and probably no sources either, ThoR is absolutely anal about copyrights). But this only means that they are working their way to 3.9-parity. Which, again, poses the question: why should anyone want 3.1.4 over 3.9?
 


Kyle Blake
(Needs Verification)
Posts 108/ 1
15 Jan 2020 12:59


Nixus Minimax wrote:

    For all I know the stuff that went into 3.9 came from many sources, not exclusively from Haage&Partner. ThoR himself contributed some stuff without passing on the rights to his contributions. I think some or perhaps even all of these contributions are also available from aminet. Hence, he could just put the same code into 3.1.4.

   
    This is absolutely true, a lot of 3.9 is third party, even when it was stuff made specifically for 3.9. So that's why it's not a good idea to make a blanket statement of it being illegal.
   
    There's also question of Amiga Inc's ownership of code written by H&P, and then licenced to Hype, as a seperate thing than ownership/distribution rights of the OS3.9 product.
   
  Thor has posted a lot in forums about what changes in 3.1.4, a lot of the changed parts are using 3.9 source as base. I'd say probably most of what he's talked about. Fixing 3.9's printer bugs for this new release was apparently a total nightmare.
   
   
Nixus Minimax wrote:
It is also true that 3.1.4 tries to reimplement some of the stuff that is in 3.9 but to which they have no rights (and probably no sources either, ThoR is absolutely anal about copyrights).

   
    This is also true. They couldn't get 68k version of reaction, for example, so they replicated a lot of 3.9 specific prefs panels using gadtools. Since 3.1.4 release they aquired reaction and are going to include it in 3.2, compiled for 68000 this time.
   
   
Nixus Minimax wrote:
But this only means that they are working their way to 3.9-parity. Which, again, poses the question: why should anyone want 3.1.4 over 3.9?

   
    Depends how you mean.
   
    As a streight choice of which OS to run, depends on your hardware. For RTG system I'd 3.9, for A500 or plain A1200 I'd run 3.1.4.
   
    If you mean install 3.1.4 over 3.9, it isn't to upgrade the whole OS version. There is a specially released script which uses 3.1.4 as a boingbag update. Selective replacement of 3.9 components with 3.1.4 components, wherever the 3.1.4 version is thought to be superior.
   
    When the latter is done, all 3.9 features are still there. If 3.1.4 rom chip is installed you boot up faster because it doesn't softkick 3.9 rom anymore. Beyond that it's totally transparent, if it wasn't for hyperion copyright you can't tell anything is different.
   
    Basically you trade one set of bugs for another.


Kyle Blake
(Needs Verification)
Posts 108/ 1
15 Jan 2020 14:27


Thread has now gained the attention of one of hyperion 3.2 developers. Clairifes the situation somewhat, 3.9 code is used where they had access to it.
 
  https://forum.amiga.org/index.php?topic=74358.msg847512#msg847512
 
Legality not mentioned beyond someone else mentioning Coffin is also illegal. And as a bonus, a suggestion for the thread starter's problem.


Stefano Briccolani

Posts 463
15 Jan 2020 14:52


I don't see any Hyperion developer in the page you linked.


Olaf Schoenweiss

Posts 636
15 Jan 2020 15:15


Kyle

you seem to know everything it seems

3.9 is copyrighted H&P

Parts of it were third party and those copyrights returned to the developer who partly were involved in AmigaOS development. The rest stayed copyright H&P. The 3.1.4 development started with 3.1 sources. Sources were also taken from AmigaOS 4.X sources (as I understand it) so there might be sources included that were also part of 3.9


Olaf Schoenweiss

Posts 636
15 Jan 2020 15:18


he forgot to include all:

Oh well. The following is from the 3.1.4 sources:
Code: [Select]
                ; This is a little hack that makes things a lot easier for
                ; me. Due to commercial/support issues, H&P/Olli Kastl do not want
                ; to have 4way support enabled. It may come in handy for me though,
                ; so I do this little magic stunt

Only so much: You can enable 4-way adapters (since 3.9 and  thus 3.1.4 actually), though it seems that this was not indended back then - without permission from Oliver Kastl, it's probably better to keep it this way.


Michael AMike

Posts 116
15 Jan 2020 15:19


Kyle Blake wrote:

  Thread has now gained the attention of one of hyperion 3.2 developers. Clairifes the situation somewhat, 3.9 code is used where they had access to it.
 
 

 
  Do you mean kolla? He is a well known troll - better ignore him.

Edit: OS3.1.4 is a further development of 3.1 and 3.2 at the latest will OS3.9 outperfom in most of the areas. But it doesn't make much sense to discuss this topic here because Gunnar and Thor have different goals and discuss it regularl with no outcome. I wouldn't ask Gunnar about 3.x and Thor about the Apollo Core. 
 
 


Olaf Schoenweiss

Posts 636
15 Jan 2020 15:19


Thor is doing 3.1.4 and has access to source codes

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