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Thierry Atheist
Posts 644
30 Jun 2017 14:59
| Gunnar von Boehn wrote:
| | So from design 10 times more advanced than 68060 FPU. |
...and in floating point...
Gunnar von Boehn wrote:
| | So from design 1.0e+1 times more advanced than 68060 FPU. |
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Wawa T
Posts 695
30 Jun 2017 21:07
| David Wright wrote:
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Throw Marcus out of the boat Gunnar.
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i do not agree..
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Johannes Schäfer
Posts 47
01 Jul 2017 00:31
| Marcus Sackrow wrote:
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Who decide what will be in the next core of Vampire? Its certainly not Gunnar as long he claims to have nothing to do with Vampire cards at all, so who decide that?
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You see the Vampire as an accellerator card. It isn´t.
Marcus Sackrow wrote:
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I like to have fast RTG and fast CPU and fast FPU, the fastest Amiga ever seen.
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You can start the fastet Amiga for 30€ on your PC. WinUAE/Amiga Forever. To get better than this, Amiga needs a better chipset (Graphic, Blitter, Copper, Audio). Amiga nether has been pure horsepower, Amiga is not combining the Motorola CPU with a RTG (=PC) graphic. Amiga is the chipset (OCS/ECS/AGA and now SAGA). With RTG you use a nice Amiga Emulator within an Amiga.
Marcus Sackrow wrote:
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Maybe there are more people with this opinion and the creators consider the possibility to make a special core version for people not interested in AGA/Pamela but interested in FPU.
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For reasons many times mentioned this will not happen this way:
- according to Gunnar, Apollo FPU is ready for an older FPGA but not for Vampire. Instead of spending time for conversion "actual FPU" there is a plan for a much better and "faster FPU"
- "actual FPU" for Vampire conversion would lead to a delay for Vampire 1200 and Standalone, not to mention Vampire 3000/4000
- Releasing the "actual FPU" (after converting) and then releasing the new much "faster FPU" maybe 1-2 years later would lead to compatibility problems and two kind of FPUs within the Vampire world. I am sure that everyone would use the "faster FPU"
You see the Vampire as an accellerator card. You can use it as that. But also it is more, it is a development platform for the next step in Amiga history.
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Mr Niding
Posts 459
01 Jul 2017 07:13
| Johannes Schäfer wrote:
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You can start the fastet Amiga for 30€ on your PC. WinUAE/Amiga Forever. To get better than this, Amiga needs a better chipset (Graphic, Blitter, Copper, Audio). Amiga nether has been pure horsepower, Amiga is not combining the Motorola CPU with a RTG (=PC) graphic. Amiga is the chipset (OCS/ECS/AGA and now SAGA). With RTG you use a nice Amiga Emulator within an Amiga. |
This is the main point to highlight.
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Vojin Vidanovic
Posts 770
01 Jul 2017 09:03
| "Leave away AGA and Pamela and such stuff, but put the FPU into. I'm not a gamer and for AGA things I have a A1200, Sounds are good enough for my ears and if not, then I buy soundcard for clock port."
OK, your POV.
What you miss is that SAGA:
a) Brings AGA+ to OCS/ECS Vampires, which are now all purchased cards
b) Enables AGA+ to Standalone and future V1200/3000/4000 giving a real kick incent for sales of this cards beyond "faster CPU/noFPU"
- 4MB Chip, 16-bit chipset sound, 24-bit non RTG Screens and maybe faster blitter/copper are first enhancements beyond AGA and great ones!
c) Native display over DIGITAL-VIDEO (SAGA over DIGITAL-VIDEO) will crash dual monitor need or Parasite need or Scandoubler need to everyone, including standalone. Standalone is not possible without SAGA.
So you now hopefully see, why YOUR priorities are wrong. I hope you will enjoy softFPU+SAGA real soon for your A1200 :-)P.S.
While expanding Classics is great and amazing, we all always hoped we will have new in house chipset that would eliminate need for all those expansions. At least I did.
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Nixus Minimax
Posts 416
01 Jul 2017 09:40
| I'm partly with Marcus. I prefer a fast FPU over an _enhanced_ AGA. But I want as much Amiga software running on the Vampire as possible and this can most easily be achieved through chipset reimplementation (prerequisite) and a soft-FPU (relatively simple and thus quickly done). _Not_ enhancing AGA while you are at it, on the other hand, will not save much time nor resources and thus can't be traded for replacing the soft-FPU by a hard-FPU. So the current prioritisation of the project makes perfect sense.
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Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 6214
01 Jul 2017 11:25
| Johannes Schäfer wrote:
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You see the Vampire as an accellerator card. It isn´t.
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Maybe, this is where the confusion comes from. Maybe, it makes sense to explain again the background of the project. The project was originally started as NATAMI.
Part of the NATAMI hardware design was the AGA chipset,
the ancestor of the Apollo CPU, and a 3D Core. This all started 10 years ago. The AGA chipset was done first. The ancestor of the Apollo 68080 which was called 68050 was developed and working. The 3D chip was only done as design prototype level. The VAMPIRE is basically an "upgrade" which allows your A500 to be turned "partly" into a NATAMI. This means you not only get the best 68K CPU. But also the best AMIGA chipset (as upgrade) The idea behind this is to allow all AMIGA user to re-equip their AMIGA with the best chipset. So that at some point all users can run SAGA games.
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Vojin Vidanovic
Posts 770
01 Jul 2017 11:38
| "The ancestor of the Apollo 68080 which was called 68050 was developed and working. The 3D chip was only done as design prototype level." Far far away at some point of future, can you revisit the 3D thing and add some basic Warp3D :-) Real OpenGL would be great :-) That can be add on card to standalone, if FPGA cant fit it all :-) "The idea behind this is to allow all AMIGA user to re-equip their AMIGA with the best chipset. So that at some point all users can run SAGA games." Plus introducing the standalone and if viable even ASIC motherboard ;-)
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Marcus Sackrow
Posts 37
01 Jul 2017 12:16
| Gunnar von Boehn wrote:
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Did I understand this right?You ask me to "put" the FPU in the Vampire2.
This is a size tweaking just which takes creates for me several month of work, you have no problem asking for this. You are a coder, when you are asked if you would help write a ASM FPU app, then writing in ASM is below your pride?
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No, you did not understand right. (thanks that you cut away the second "you are naive", but maybe I am.)
I cut away the half of the sentence.... "incompatible" like worst case RiVa.
But, I can clearly write you some FPU assembler routines... Like Decay analysis, curve interpolation, curve convolution and reconvolution, fitting, such stuff. But this will clearly not aim to a wider audience, to the typical Amiga user or become a Killer app what you asked for. The main problem is todays 3d or physics engines are highly modularized and not easily transferable to a Assembler-only code. Johannes Schäfer wrote:
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You see the Vampire as an accellerator card. It isn´t.
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what do you think where I got that crazy idea?
Maybe, because the homepage adress is "apollo-accelerators[dot]com" and the first sentence there is "Apollo Accelerators is an Amiga Classic accelerator board product line."
And thats the page where you actually order them. Same on Amitkit they sell that as an accelerator board, because they actually copied this page contents. Guys, you really make awesome products, BUT YOU NEED TO WORK ON YOUR COMMUNICATION. With my Thread I wanted very carefully shine some light to this problem and I tried to formulate that very carefully to not putting down anyone, maybe some people should reread it again. I guessed already that I'm a minority here... I said it make sense for standalone... I just want the developer know that FPU is preferred over AGA by some people. An if I read some other forum there are many people waiting for a compatible FPU.
So much hate here... some people even want to kill me for having an opinion... (YES I also read the now-deleted posts) I will not read/write or anything else in this forum again, bye.
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Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 6214
01 Jul 2017 12:24
| Marcus Sackrow wrote:
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But, I can clearly write you some FPU assembler routines... Like Decay analysis, curve interpolation, curve convolution and reconvolution, fitting, such stuff. But this will clearly not aim to a wider audience, to the typical Amiga user or become a Killer app what you asked for.
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I'm pretty sure that one can find a routine, which is
* not that long and complex
* can be benefit from a Super scalar and pipelined FPU.
* can be used as a showcase - killer app Some 3D vector math routine maybe.
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Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 6214
01 Jul 2017 12:29
| Marcus Sackrow wrote:
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Same on Amitkit they sell that as an accelerator board,
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This is OK that they do this.As what do they sell it:
As CPU accelerator with >100 Mips.
Or do they sell it as FPU accelerator? I think they sell it correctly.
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Mr Niding
Posts 459
01 Jul 2017 12:29
| Marcus dont let one silly comment stop you from enjoying the Vampire via this forum. Shk pointed out via comments in his softfpu video that Pamela/aga/hdmi is being prioritised for standalone.
SoftFPU is a solution in the meantime. AND this, Gunnar, was the reason why I asked for moderation of this thread. What comes off as a jokecomment from a user in your head is probably not read that way by others. You would think the mess on EAB had taught us that by now. /facepalm
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David Wright
Posts 373
01 Jul 2017 14:26
| Who's comment, mine?
I was having a little fun extending Gunnar's metaphor.
I should take into account language and culture barriers.Everyone back in the boat, land ho!
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Mr Niding
Posts 459
01 Jul 2017 14:44
| David Wright wrote:
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Who's comment, mine?
I was having a little fun extending Gunnar's metaphor.
I should take into account language and culture barriers.
Everyone back in the boat, land ho!
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And maybe the fact that the whole thread was discounting his original post.
While pointing out that FPU isnt a priority is fine, when the whole thread is giving a person thrumbs down, ending it with such a comment is almost certain to ignite tension.
Again; the Vampire threads on EAB should be ample evidence of that.Chasing off good coders with "funny" jokes is the way to go. Mission accomplished.
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David Wright
Posts 373
01 Jul 2017 15:15
| Your assessment is totally wrong. Chasing off good coders...please?
Humorless fellow.
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Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 6214
01 Jul 2017 16:45
| David Wright wrote:
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Your assessment is totally wrong. Chasing off good coders...please?
Humorless fellow.
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I think it was clearly a joke.
Guys, I think just maybe relax.In the end AMIGA is just a nice hobby.
And we should be happy that we have it.
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Peter Heginbotham
Posts 214
01 Jul 2017 17:29
| I'll be ask first if this was a Apollo Team photo who's who Today's episode of Sesame Street has been brought to you by the letters A and V, and the number 1
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Documentation about the Vampire hardware