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Mr Niding

Posts 28
17 Apr 2017 18:25


So, BigGun queried on IRC today that users should map out what we wanted from the Vampire going forward.
I had to run to work as the discussion kicked off, so making a post instead.

The discussion was amount of memory, with 2 gigabytes as the max due OS limitations.
The default answer is obviously; the more the better, but the question is at what cost for different levels; 256 megs, 1 gig ..?
I guess users like Jack-3d and Norbert Kett are more in a position to evaluate the need for more memory. Jack being a 3D artist, and Norbert looking into TinyGL.
A 3D artist probably want as much memory as they can...?
And Im also curious how much memory TinyGL will demand?

Secondly, will more ram only constitute more cost per board for customers, or will it add development time.

I think most of us are more intrested in having FPU, enhanced sound and the features needed for development of for example TinyGL.

If the cost of V1200 and/or standalone is only increased 50-100 euros for more memory, Im sure Im not the only one intrested in such a configuration change.


Wawa T

Posts 309
17 Apr 2017 19:02


128mb are enough for now, but may be too little for advanced apps if they really are thinkable and even materialize. odyssey would have memory requirement in the range of 300mb, same for aros mesa, even if it is in software mode completely out of question, except as a proof of concept.


Michael R

Posts 215
17 Apr 2017 20:05


Rather than having a preconfigured amount of on-board memory would it be feasible to add a single SODIMM slot so that the user can add a single memory module up to 2GB in size? Since the card would be sold with no on-board memory that would offset the cost of the SODIMM.
 
  Secondly, would it be possible to add a USB 2.0 pin header (for 2 ports) somewhere on the board? It won't take much space for the headers but it would allow us much more flexibility for components.
 
  As for the standalone board would it be possible to add an edge connector of some type that would allow the addition of future "expansion boards" such as for PCI, PCIe, SATA, mSATA, etc.
  An edge connector would allow great flexibility for future uses.
 
  Just a few ideas.


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 2550
17 Apr 2017 20:17


Michael R wrote:

Rather than having a preconfigured amount of on-board memory would it be feasible to add a single SODIMM slot so that the user can add a single memory module up to 2GB in size?

Our customer base is too small for this.

Putting a DIMM connector makes only sense if support for several DIMMS can be guaranteed. To do this in a reliable and professional  manner needs a lot time / testing and effort.

Doing this lazy and buggy is no effort. ;-)
But doing it professional and guaranteed to be working will take several month time and add significant cost on the product.

This cost makes no sense for our small market.


Michael R

Posts 215
17 Apr 2017 20:26


Gunnar von Boehn wrote:

 
Michael R wrote:

    Rather than having a preconfigured amount of on-board memory would it be feasible to add a single SODIMM slot so that the user can add a single memory module up to 2GB in size?
   

   
    Our customer base is too small for this.
   
    Putting a DIMM connector makes only sense if support for several DIMMS can be guaranteed. To do this in a reliable and professional  manner needs a lot time / testing and effort.
   
    Doing this lazy and buggy is no effort. ;-)
    But doing it professional and guaranteed to be working will take several month time and add significant cost on the product.
   
    This cost makes no sense for our small market.
 

 
  The market size is important to consider as opposed to the effort involved. In that case having a preconfigured amount and type of memory on-board is the better way. How difficult would it be to have pin headers for one or two USB ports?

I suspect that the original query was about memory only? If so, then please disregard the rest of what I asked.
 


Xan X-vision

Posts 9
17 Apr 2017 20:39


I don´t think we are even limited by OS: if you want a port of Aros 64, better have something that make it more suitable for it.

And not only because of that. Modern computing NEEDS memory. It is not about optimize code or whatever: streams of video, sound, 3D scenes or whatever element you wanna deal with, have defined size, and if you have enough memory, you can manage them, if you don´t, then forget about it.

Sure we can save 50€, and then forget to surf certain websites, don´t watch certain videos, don´t create certain 3D scenes, or a complex music, etc...  does it make sense to forbid ourselves to all those capabilities because of 50 bucks?

Not to me. I would even consider 4GB (we must think in something useful in 2 years from now, not only today). And even they create a new version (which I hope and expect) of the hardware, I would buy it anyway, because I expect it to have 8gb or more.


Michael R

Posts 215
17 Apr 2017 20:46


We should consider that the 68080, according to benchmarks from the design team, runs at about 140MHz. So what kind of operating systems can we run on the hardware and then what are the memory requirements? The 2GB limit only pertains to Amiga OS? What about AROS?


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 2550
17 Apr 2017 20:50


xan x-vision wrote:

I don´t think we are even limited by OS

Well AMIGA OS as of today supports 2 GB max.

Also more memory cost not only increase cost, it will also increase power consumption etc.

Total power consumption has also to be considered if you want to support customers with old AMIGAs.
 


Wawa T

Posts 309
17 Apr 2017 20:54


xan x-vision wrote:

I don´t think we are even limited by OS: if you want a port of Aros 64, better have something that make it more suitable for it.

i dont understand what you want to say. none talks about aros 64(bit?). if you refer to my post i actually speak about applications, like browsers, or 3d drivers, since aros itself has pretty low memory demands.thats where i agree with you, optimization has its limits, therefore it depends the area range we target.

a reasonable choice were to have 512mb, it is still reasonable in comparison to given cpu speed, 1gig, while nice to have, might be an overkill, as it is unlikely to be fully used.


Michael R

Posts 215
17 Apr 2017 20:59


Gunnar von Boehn wrote:

 
xan x-vision wrote:

  I don´t think we are even limited by OS
 

 
  Well AMIGA OS as of today supports 2 GB max.
 
  Also more memory cost not only increase cost, it will also increase power consumption etc.
 
  Total power consumption has also to be considered if you want to support customers with old AMIGAs.
   
 

 
  That's true for the Vampire accelerator cards, but the standalone motherboard should have its own power supply. But as you say, additional memory adds cost, although people will be willing to pay for more.
 
  Nevertheless, if you are just targeting Amiga OS then up to 2GB is more than enough, and it should be plenty for whichever flavor of AROS that we will be using as well.
 


Stefano Briccolani

Posts 10
17 Apr 2017 21:00


512 mb is the better choice for me


Mr Niding

Posts 28
17 Apr 2017 21:01


The amount of additional memory desired depends on additional cost added for 512mb or 1 gig. And at what memory treshold will standard psu's be insufficient.


Michael R

Posts 215
17 Apr 2017 21:03


Would it be possible to have a few distinct configurations, or are the designs greatly different? Such as 256MB, 512MB, 1GB. Maybe then we could order a Vampire 1200 with 256, or 512MB? Just a thought. More is better.


Michael R

Posts 215
17 Apr 2017 21:16


Mr Niding wrote:

The amount of additional memory desired depends on additional cost added for 512mb or 1 gig. And at what memory treshold will standard psu's be insufficient.

At the current time given an Amiga 500 or Amiga 1200 with the
original Amiga power supply, adding memory may overload the
power supplied to the motherboard. But if we add a new Amiga
power supply then we can support more memory. We would need
an ATX to 5-pin Amiga power converter but they are hard to
find. But it has been done.


Xan X-vision

Posts 9
17 Apr 2017 21:45


wawa t wrote:

xan x-vision wrote:

  I don´t think we are even limited by OS: if you want a port of Aros 64, better have something that make it more suitable for it.
 

 
  i dont understand what you want to say. none talks about aros 64(bit?). if you refer to my post i actually speak about applications, like browsers, or 3d drivers, since aros itself has pretty low memory demands.thats where i agree with you, optimization has its limits, therefore it depends the area range we target.
 
  a reasonable choice were to have 512mb, it is still reasonable in comparison to given cpu speed, 1gig, while nice to have, might be an overkill, as it is unlikely to be fully used.

I know what you was talking about, it was obvious. I am trying to explain that, if we want to have more than 2GB, AmigaOS cannot use it, but fortunatelly we already have an OS (appart from linux) that support whatever the amount of memory that we want, so we will not be restricted because of that.

And in the end, to make a better use of the 68080, it is also better to have an OS with a custom compilation for it.



Xan X-vision

Posts 9
17 Apr 2017 21:48


Gunnar von Boehn wrote:

 
xan x-vision wrote:

  I don´t think we are even limited by OS
 

 
  Well AMIGA OS as of today supports 2 GB max.
 
  Also more memory cost not only increase cost, it will also increase power consumption etc.
 
  Total power consumption has also to be considered if you want to support customers with old AMIGAs.
   
 

 
  That's why I mention Aros 64. This is the way we can use as much memory as we wish. I am sure you have considered it to the standalone system, as AmigaOS must be very limited to manage that configuration to its fullest potential, because of many reasons: memory, USB, power management, CPU optimizations, Graphic and gui operations, etc...
 
How many watts is the difference between 512mb, 1GB, 2GB or 4GB?
 


Xan X-vision

Posts 9
17 Apr 2017 21:55


Gunnar von Boehn wrote:

xan x-vision wrote:

  I don´t think we are even limited by OS
 

 
  Well AMIGA OS as of today supports 2 GB max.
 
  Also more memory cost not only increase cost, it will also increase power consumption etc.
 
  Total power consumption has also to be considered if you want to support customers with old AMIGAs.
 

That's why I mention Aros 64. This is the way we can use as much memory as we wish. I am sure you have considered it to the standalone system, as AmigaOS must be very limited to manage that configuration to its fullest potential.

How many watts is the difference between 512mb, 1GB, 2GB or 4GB?



A1200 Coder

Posts 5
17 Apr 2017 22:10


The memory amount also needs to scale with CPU speed. For example, the 68000 needed some 20 clock cycles to copy a long word in memory to memory, resulting in a copy speed of around 1,6 MB/sec@8 MHz. A 68030/50 MHz does the  same thing in 20-25 MB/sec and a 68060/50 MHz in 40-60 MB/sec. And these machines came typically equipped with 1/16/64MB of memory, so the CPU is able to access all memory in about a second or so.
 
Now, if 68080 has a memory access speed of around 300 MB/sec, then a memory size of 256-512 MB would scale well. With larger memories of a few gigabytes, you need almost a coffee break when the CPU is accessing all memory. And that's too slow.


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 2550
17 Apr 2017 22:20


A1200 coder wrote:

  Now, if 68080 has a memory access speed of around 300 MB/sec,
 

 
68080 can do memory access of 64bit per cycle.
This means with optimal memory an 68080@100 MHz will do 800 MB/sec.

In theory with prefect prefetching this can even be more.
Up to 1600 MB/sec ideally.


Kolbjørn Barmen

Posts 124
17 Apr 2017 22:30


I want something that can replace my A1200, that means replacing Blizzard 1260 with 192MB of RAM and Indivision. I prefer a standalone board with 512MB or more RAM. I wish for damn fast yet compatible planar modes, no more flickering, HAM8 modes that fly even in higher resolutions. IO - USB ports that are exposed to Amiga, for use with Poseidon, not needing much CPU power. A serial port for all kinds of legacy use, romwack, diagrom etc, but that can do (much) higher baud rates and less CPU hungry. Header for attaching a real A500 keyboard, and/or ZIFs for connecting A600 and A1200 keyboards, for those who want to build it into an Amiga case. Legacy joystick/mouse ports. And a proper NIC would be nice.

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