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Documentation about the Vampire hardware

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Roman S.

Posts 149
26 Apr 2017 17:50


Don't assume the IDE->SD interfaces will be easily&cheaply available forever.

If someone decides to take over the job, I think Toni Willen might be able to provide some information - he recently added a lot of weird SCSI controllers to WinUAE.


Michael R

Posts 281
26 Apr 2017 20:05


As far as PCI express...this would be great for Amiga 68k/Vampire:

(From an article dated 3/20/2013)

EXTERNAL LINK 

"Altera has announced that its 28 nm Cyclone V GT FPGA completed compliance testing with the PCI Express (PCIe) 2.0 specification.

Available in production today, the Cyclone V GT FPGA is the industry’s first low-cost, low-power FPGA to achieve PCIe 2.0 interoperability with data rates of 5 Gbps. The Cyclone V GT FPGA successfully passed all PCI-SIG compliance and interoperability tests at the most recent PCI-SIG workshop and is currently included on the PCI-SIG Integrators List. Cyclone V GT FPGAs provide developers a significant reduction in system costs and system power when developing PCIe Gen2-based applications compared to previously available FPGAs.

  “Achieving PCIe Gen2 compliance with our Cyclone V GT FPGA marks another milestone in the successful rollout of our 28 nm Cyclone V FPGA family,” said Sabrina Raza, senior product marketing manager at Altera. “Customers who need the system performance offered by PCIe Gen2 now have the ability to use a low-power FPGA and lower their total system costs. Leveraging our expertise in transceiver technology and our proficiency in developing PCIe design solutions, we allow customers to save a significant amount in system costs while not trading off on performance.”

Cyclone V FPGAs feature integrated transceivers with data rates up to 5 Gbps and have two hardened PCIe IP blocks embedded within the device. The PCIe hard IP blocks enable developers to increase system performance and system functionality while boosting design team productivity. The PCIe 2.0-compliant hard IP blocks consists of the PHY/MAC, data link and transaction layers. The blocks can be configured to function as an end point or a root port and supports up to x4 lanes."



Michael R

Posts 281
26 Apr 2017 20:16


More information about a possible PCI express edge connector for future expansion (bus board or single cards):

EXTERNAL LINK 
(October 22, 2007)

"Available in X1, X4, X8, and X16 configurations, Straddle Mount PCI Express Connectors offer additional solutions for co-planar applications between printed circuit boards. Rugged design is manufactured using insert molding process ensuring proper pin alignment and accurate contact registration. Low profile allows for dense packaging options. Each serial lane is comprised of differential transmit and receive signals with data rates running at 5.0 Gbps."


Michael R

Posts 281
26 Apr 2017 21:06


If we only had a DIMM or SODIMM...
 
  This is the DIMM version. Maybe the SODIMM version is coming soon.
 
  EXTERNAL LINK 
 
  Then there is the DDR3 UlltraDIMM...
 
  EXTERNAL LINK   


Wawa T

Posts 695
26 Apr 2017 22:20


Nixus Minimax wrote:

  Heiroglyph was working on the driver and got pretty far.

thats how it happens usually. therefore: open source. otherwise something gets started but never get done and sources are lost as result.

there is some restrictions one needs to consider when coding rom modules. usage of constants or whatever i dont remember. if he had been in contact with a community of people experienced in the matter it would probably be a weekend job to make it work;)

we need a proper developer forum, btw. some day..
 

  I'm not sure it's worth the effort anyway.

maybe.


Mark Smith

Posts 30
26 Apr 2017 22:47


Michael R wrote:

More information about a possible PCI express edge connector for future expansion (bus board or single cards):

Probably a tad OTT for the Amiga market ?  I'm guessing it's not simple to make PCI express devices.
And it may end up like the X1000 Xena + XORRO bus ... soooo many add ons got released for the Xorro bus after all ;-)




Wawa T

Posts 695
27 Apr 2017 00:29


Mark Smith wrote:

  soooo many add ons got released for the Xorro bus after all ;-)
 

  on the other side pci express is acknowledged standard. xorro is some fancy.


Michael R

Posts 281
27 Apr 2017 01:29


Mark Smith wrote:

   
Michael R wrote:

    More information about a possible PCI express edge connector for future expansion (bus board or single cards):
   

   
    Probably a tad OTT for the Amiga market ?  I'm guessing it's not simple to make PCI express devices.
    And it may end up like the X1000 Xena + XORRO bus ... soooo many add ons got released for the Xorro bus after all ;-)
   
   
   

   
    There are MANY PCI express devices available today
    but they would need Amiga 68k/AROS drivers written.
 
  We're talking about using PCI express to allow Amiga
  to meet the rest of the computer world. For many years
  Amiga computers have not been able to take full advantage
  of relatively cheap common components first ISA then PCI,
  now PCI express. Amiga needs PCI express! But how fast
  Do we need? SATA II/III, USB 2/3, SSD's or just Fast IDE?
   
    The key concept with PCI express as an Edge Connector
    is for future expansion. It offers high speed/bandwidth
    at up to 5Gbs (roughly 600MB/s?) as a connection speed.
   
    The 68080 transfers at 800MB/s, memory at 300-400MB/s.
    The PCI express edge connector is placed on the edge of
    the Apollo Mainboard. It acts as a high speed bridge
    between the boards.
   
    Imagine the Main Board on one side
    and the Expansion Board on the other. The Expansion
    Board contains all the new add-on components you need.
    Instead of changing the Main Board each time just change
    the components on the Expansion Board. The Main Board
    remains basically the same. If it can be done that is
    a huge expansion option for Amiga 68k. Of course new
    drivers will be needed for all expansion components.
 
  Think: Mediator PCI Expansion Board meets Apollo PCIe
  Expansion Board. Which one wins for speed and bandwidth?
   
    The Server SSD's in memory slots were just for amusement.


Michael R

Posts 281
27 Apr 2017 06:01


Mark Smith wrote:

Michael R wrote:

  More information about a possible PCI express edge connector for future expansion (bus board or single cards):
 

 
  Probably a tad OTT for the Amiga market ?  I'm guessing it's not simple to make PCI express devices.
  And it may end up like the X1000 Xena + XORRO bus ... soooo many add ons got released for the Xorro bus after all ;-)
 
 

You know, I think you're right. This PCIe technology is
far too much for Amiga! Amiga OS 68k/Aros 68k just aren't
ready for the future. They are merely stuck in the past.

Amiga OS and Amiga compatible hardware such as Vampire
Accelerators and standalone board are just for hobbyists.
How much speed and CPU power do you need to play old games?

Although the Apollo Team is quite capable in most things,
and even though Cyclone V has some support for PCI express
I doubt that the design team can implement a working PCIe
edge connector for the main board. It's just too difficult.
Although the Expansion Board concept would provide lots of
possibilities to use existing PCIe components and new ones.
It might be an excellent way to connect PCIe bus boards.
But even if it could be done Amiga OS has no new drivers.

Amiga OS can't use SSD drives and fast modern memory even
if we had drivers. We will forever be using CF/SD cards to
play our old games and look at our Workbench remembering...


Roman S.

Posts 149
27 Apr 2017 07:38


I second this - right now this is simply not work the hassle. AFAIK the design of the Vampire standalone is close to complete, I really don't want to wait another 5-10 years to get it - even if this means I won't be able to use my GeForce 1070 with the re-implemented Amiga :)
 
And which exactly cards would be profitable for the classic Amiga software? I can only think about the Sonnet Crescendo clone which is being developed.


Nixus Minimax

Posts 416
27 Apr 2017 09:05


wawa t wrote:

Nixus Minimax wrote:

  Heiroglyph was working on the driver and got pretty far.

 
  thats how it happens usually. therefore: open source. otherwise something gets started but never get done and sources are lost as result.

Yes, I totally agree. I'm not sure of the whereabouts of the source. I'm positive that Heiroglyph would share it. Most of our support software is going to be open-sourced if it isn't already, just a few things that we feel people better not touch are going to remain closed.




Ian Parsons

Posts 230
27 Apr 2017 09:32


Is this the source code or is there supposed to be something newer EXTERNAL LINK


Wawa T

Posts 695
27 Apr 2017 11:43


Ian Parsons wrote:

Is this the source code or is there supposed to be something newer EXTERNAL LINK 

this appears to be jasons driver, probably rtg driver for most part, even if there seems to be part thats sd related. all commits are from jason, except tuko bumped the copyright this year. i dont see anything from heiroglyph. i might try to contact him on aorg. however im not sure if im the right person, being coding noob, being totally busy with aros and not having a vampire to test. ill think about it.


A1200 Coder

Posts 74
27 Apr 2017 13:30


Please don't forget the original amiga philosophy: the games and apps need to be written with the custom chips + CPU in mind. That means for graphics and audio, OCS, ECS, AGA and SAGA. A PPC Amiga for example is not an Amiga, it has some CPU unknown to me and same with graphics board. If you want stuff that is only available for a PC, go and get one, the PPC Amigas have obsolete and expensive hardware anyway, and are not even compatible with older amigas.

Yes, I know, some Amigas were equipped with 24-bit graphics cards and 16-bit audiocards in the past even on 68k amigas, but these never became a standard, and these days, its cheaper and much easier to just get a PC, if SAGA is not enough.
 
Memory and harddisk can be freely chosen, and USB is not bad either. This is not against amiga philosophy, we had e.g. PCMCIA ethernet cards for A1200, and this was fine. But please also remember that with a lot of different  hardware expansion support you get software bloat.. on the amiga its good that you have e.g. ethernet and TCP/IP stuff out of kernel.


Thierry Atheist

Posts 644
27 Apr 2017 13:53


A1200 coder wrote:
But please also remember that with a lot of different  hardware expansion support you get software bloat.. on the amiga its good that you have e.g. ethernet and TCP/IP stuff out of kernel.

Hi A1200 codee,

That's why I question, is it a good idea to use keyboards, mice and joysticks on USB running at 480 megabits?

Is bloat low? Is response time good, even if you're reading or writing to a hard drive or memory card?

That's the only reason I was asking about P/S2 or 9 pin ports to be included on the Apollo Vampire accelerator boards.


Wawa T

Posts 695
27 Apr 2017 14:04


A1200 coder wrote:
Yes, I know, some Amigas were equipped with 24-bit graphics cards and 16-bit audiocards in the past even on 68k amigas, but these never became a standard, and these days, its cheaper and much easier to just get a PC, if SAGA is not enough.

to each his own. but i think, contrary to ppc extension, rtg and sound cards are popular enough to be worth (optional) support. i wouldnt place artificial restrictions here, especially saga provides what is genuine chipset extended with exactly rtg capability.

i dont like chunky true or high color modes as requirement of applications, especially with sdl, this should be transparent. the user should be simply able to use the available graphic mode he prefers.


Andrew Copland

Posts 113
27 Apr 2017 15:47


wawa t wrote:

  i dont like chunky true or high color modes as requirement of applications, especially with sdl, this should be transparent. the user should be simply able to use the available graphic mode he prefers.

That's not practical though, since it affects the art assets. Every image is tailored to a bit depth/format. It affect compression used to minimise disk space etc, file location ordering to reduce load time and avoid seek in disk/hdd/cd etc.

That's why once 32-bit chunky became available it became the standard, with compression on top (S3TC/DXTn etc).

You can use 32-bit chunky assets on lower bit depth machines but you get banding and other artefacts. Whereas assets designed for 16/8-bit colour depths can use other techniques to hide the lack of pallette range.

The other problem is that unless it's transparent to the software you create windows with specific colour depths using libraries like SDL. If creating the window files then you often don't know why. So you ask for a window of size/position/colour-depth and it fails, you can retry with other things but you're generally just guessing.

Then if you get a lower colour depth window you might have to manage the 32->16 bit colour conversions yourself. Either when you load the asset or when you use it.

It can all be done of course. I'm just pointing out that what sounds simple probably isn't.


Chris H

Posts 65
27 Apr 2017 17:33


You are mostly right i think. Power PC for Amiga is a dead end for me for many reasons as well and so is any "development" for it inlcuding Amiga OS 4. Thats why I sold all of my PPC equipment a view years ago already. The approach the Apollo Team started, staying with 68k design and continue to develop it further and truly bringing it to a new level like they promised, is the only way that seems right for me. I see many people and developers following this with much of interest...


Thierry Atheist

Posts 644
28 Apr 2017 06:58


I can't believe it.... I need an Armiga!

I've heard of it before but ignored it because Vampire II has so much to offer.... And just now I find out that the Armiga has a FLOPPY DISK DRIVE built into it!! Honestly, I didn't even think that it was still possible for this to be done, as I thought that 1) floppy drives weren't made anymore, 2) AMIGA FORMATTED DISK reading floppy disk drives SURELY must not be available anymore.....

Anyhow, if the Vampire II standalone motherboard could read 3.5 floppy disks too, it would corner EVERY POSSIBLE AMIGA market niche!


Michael R

Posts 281
28 Apr 2017 08:02


Thierry Atheist wrote:

    I can't believe it.... I need an Armiga!
     
      I've heard of it before but ignored it because Vampire II has so much to offer.... And just now I find out that the Armiga has a FLOPPY DISK DRIVE built into it!! Honestly, I didn't even think that it was still possible for this to be done, as I thought that 1) floppy drives weren't made anymore, 2) AMIGA FORMATTED DISK reading floppy disk drives SURELY must not be available anymore.....
     
      Anyhow, if the Vampire II standalone motherboard could read 3.5 floppy disks too, it would corner EVERY POSSIBLE AMIGA market niche!
   

   
    I CAN'T believe you DON'T have one! If you hurry you can buy a cheap Amiga 500 computer for $50 and invest in a Vampire 500 V2+ just like 2400 other people did. You would have the best of both worlds. It has an original Amiga floppy drive!
   
    Seriously though I have a new concept that would be so easy to implement yet a very good idea! I hope the Apollo Team listens. The standalone Apollo board only needs a few basic components such as FPGA, memory, DIGITAL-VIDEO, USB, and sound ports. But it REALLY needs a high speed Edge Connector to connect two main boards, but in this case the Apollo board with FPGA connected to an Expansion Board of the same size! Since the main board is small 120mm + 120mm with a 4mm overhang for the edge connector is 244mm (Micro ATX). With some crafty engineering and a custom backplate it could fit in a standard computer case or Amiga case if preferred.
   
    The Expansion Board can contain cheap, readily available components such as Amiga 1200 keyboard connector, Amiga floppy connector, legacy serial, mouse and joystick, additional USB, SATA, RTC, PCI slots like Mediator. What type of PCI cards? USB 2.2, FireWire, Ethernet. Anything can be on the Expansion Board if there's room. Third party developers could make expansion boards cheaply and quickly from standard components. Instead of changing Apollo Motherboards every few years just get a new expansion board with newer components! Saves money and development time! A high speed Edge Connector is better maybe up to 600MB/sec (5Gb/s) like PCIe.
   
    I'm NOT saying that we add PCIe to the mainboard  but we just add it as a high speed high bandwidth edge connector! But really the Expansion Board edge connector could be custom made, but PCI express edge connectors already exist. Why re-invent a good thing!
   
    The key attractive feature of the Apollo standalone motherboard would not only be the amazing FPGA 68080 + SAGA, but a well conceived edge connector for future Expansion Boards. Any Amiga developer(s) could and would make Expansion Boards full of components for Apollo products.
   
    The future of Amiga 68k would be ensured with a steady stream of new Amiga hardware! Keeping the dream alive! ;-)
   

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