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Wawa T
Posts 695
11 Apr 2017 20:48
| Michael R wrote:
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wawa t wrote:
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Michael R wrote:
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Not sure whether Gunnar was serious or not on April 1st
about Hyperion working on a version of AOS 4 for 68k,
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it was a call for sleeping dogs, obviously.. sigh..
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Since you aren't concerned with the technical aspects of alternative Amiga 68k operating systems perhaps I should ask you to stay with the main topic? Do you use WinUAE or UAE? Do you own or do you intend to purchase a Vampire accelerator card? If so how would you compare or contrast the two? That's all you need to be concerned with.
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i am simply correcting misconceptions voiced in this thread, its not me who started offtopic on os4/aros subject. what concerns uae, it is a very handy and helpful tool, especially for testing while developing, thats for sure. but nothing beats real hardware. i dont know if ill get vampire. probably at some point when a 1200 version is available, but this is my own concern. i am supporting ths effort regardless.
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Michael R
Posts 281
11 Apr 2017 20:56
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I've used WinUAE and it is very good for testing and experimentation. Amiga OS 4.1 Final Edition can be run in WinUAE as well for comparison or for testing or whatever else. But I will most likely use a Hybrid version of Amiga OS 3.5 + AROS 68k binaries on my Vampire 500 V2+ and I will use WinUAE to do that. That was my main point. Vampire and UAE can be used together.
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Wawa T
Posts 695
11 Apr 2017 21:34
| | Amiga OS 3.5 + AROS 68k binaries |
you wont be able to run aros68k binaries on amiga os3.5 if they are linked against aros libraries. on the other hand you might not be able to run os3.5 components on aros, just like you wouldnt be able to run them on os3.1, because some functionality changed between versions.
generally, you would have to run aros and eventually try to replace individual components by your preferred counterparts. for instance you might use peter k's icon.library, although the gain may not be that significant. probably you could try to run workbench on aros, but then you could as well go for magellan or simply take scalos, which is even an aros contribution.
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Michael R
Posts 281
12 Apr 2017 01:00
| Wawa T. thanks for pointing that out. Apologies for misinformation:
While talking about a Hybrid Amiga Operating System
of Amiga OS 3.5 + AROS 68k binaries I mistakenly
linked to AROS 68k. That's not a hybrid Amiga OS.
What I had intended to link to was AROS for Amiga
(AFA) which you can see here: EXTERNAL LINK "The AfA OS Project was started in November 2005 by
Bernd Roesch. The goal of AfA OS is to bring modern
features like Antialiasing (AA) to the AmigaOS since
there is no further development for the 68k AmigaOS
since OS3.9 AfA OS replaces AmigaOS core libraries
with their more advanced AROS counterparts." That is what I would like to test in WinUAE. If it
results in a stable system I'll copy it all to a
Compact Flash and transfer to my Amiga + Vampire. That's one way I'll use UAE with Vampire. I will
also use it as my internet connection, such as in
downloading from Aminet and copying to Compact Flash.
There are probably many other uses for WinUAE (Uae).
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Wawa T
Posts 695
12 Apr 2017 01:44
| i know very well about afa. i used it for a long time, also worked together with bernd on a number of issues, in fact he tought me how to compile anything for amiga. but afa-os is rather hacky, and based on very old aros sources. since then (there was no working aros68k at that time yet) a lot of things greatly improved including compatibility. if you use afa, even though its still applicable, you might gain a wrong impression on the state of aros today. what however actually could be done, would be compiling chosen aros modules with the new gcc6.2.0 for amiga-m68k (well, if it will make any difference in comparison to gcc 6.3.0 aros-m68k) and trying to strip them of aros dependencies, compiling against amiga sdk includes and libs.
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Michael R
Posts 281
12 Apr 2017 02:10
| wawa t wrote:
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i know very well about afa. i used it for a long time, also worked together with bernd on a number of issues, in fact he tought me how to compile anything for amiga. but afa-os is rather hacky, and based on very old aros sources. since then (there was no working aros68k at that time yet) a lot of things greatly improved including compatibility. if you use afa, even though its still applicable, you might gain a wrong impression on the state of aros today.
what however actually could be done, would be compiling chosen aros modules with the new gcc6.2.0 for amiga-m68k (well, if it will make any difference in comparison to gcc 6.3.0 aros-m68k) and trying to strip them of aros dependencies, compiling against amiga sdk includes and libs.
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Thank you for the information about AFA. I suspected it might be an old project. But AROS 68k might be a good way forward for the Apollo products, Vampire accelerator cards included and the standalone. Once I get setup with a coding environment either on Amiga + Vampire or on Icaros I'd like to do some programming for Aros 68k and Amiga OS 68k. But that might be a while, a few months. Once the Vampire accelerator cards for A500 get into the hands of end users we may see more sustained development for Amiga OS 68k and other Amiga-like OS'es as they pertain to the Apollo products. I sincerely hope so. I suspect that the number of people interested in purchasing a Vampire 1200 accelerator card may be more than anyone has anticipated. Maybe you and I will be counted in that number as well. I wonder what I could do with that standalone board?
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Michael R
Posts 281
12 Apr 2017 02:55
| Here's a thought about Vampire and UAE since that's our topic.
We have some options as far as operating systems for our Vampire equipped Amigas. We could use Amiga OS 68k, but it is not being actively developed. AROS 68k could be a good way to add functionality and a tighter compatibility with Apollo hardware. But some changes to AROS may be needed to accomplish this.
Having said that, the AROS developers and the Apollo developers could work together to ensure that those changes are made. That would be a win for both sides. AROS 68k could run natively and very fast on the 68080 CPU + Super AGA. Compatibility with older Amiga OCS/ECS and AGA software and games would be a must have to be completely successful.
I've used Icaros Desktop in the past. I believe it uses a version of UAE to run Amiga 68k games and apps? Wouldn't it be great if due to cooperation with the Apollo team that sometime in the future it were possible for AROS to run Amiga 68k software natively on a 68080 + Super AGA by use of maybe a PCI card with an Apollo-core FPGA in computers not equipped with a main 68k CPU? Maybe it could happen.
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Saladriel Amrael
Posts 166
12 Apr 2017 09:51
| Michael R wrote:
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Here's a thought about Vampire and UAE since that's our topic.
We have some options as far as operating systems for our Vampire equipped Amigas. We could use Amiga OS 68k, but it is not being actively developed. AROS 68k could be a good way to add functionality and a tighter compatibility with Apollo hardware. But some changes to AROS may be needed to accomplish this.
Having said that, the AROS developers and the Apollo developers could work together to ensure that those changes are made. That would be a win for both sides. AROS 68k could run natively and very fast on the 68080 CPU + Super AGA. Compatibility with older Amiga OCS/ECS and AGA software and games would be a must have to be completely successful.
I've used Icaros Desktop in the past. I believe it uses a version of UAE to run Amiga 68k games and apps? Wouldn't it be great if due to cooperation with the Apollo team that sometime in the future it were possible for AROS to run Amiga 68k software natively on a 68080 + Super AGA by use of maybe a PCI card with an Apollo-core FPGA in computers not equipped with a main 68k CPU? Maybe it could happen.
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I agree with everything you say.
Now, switching from chit-chat to something more knowledge based: do you mean something like the 3DO board sold years ago for Windows PCs? Whew! THAT would be a neat idea.
Maybe something that can be installed on both AmigaOnes and PCs, that would mean using just one Keyboard/Mouse/Joypad/Monitor/DVDRom for both, thus saving space and money.
Now question: is your idea meant to be a stand alone Amiga within an host computer, or just a CPU card to be used by AROS when found?
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Marlon Beijer
Posts 182
12 Apr 2017 14:26
| Michael R wrote:
| Wouldn't it be great if due to cooperation with the Apollo team that sometime in the future it were possible for AROS to run Amiga 68k software natively on a 68080 + Super AGA by use of maybe a PCI card with an Apollo-core FPGA in computers not equipped with a main 68k CPU? Maybe it could happen.
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That would be awesome if it would work. 68k apps might still have to be sandboxed so they call the registers on the CPU-card instead. I don't know how hard that would be.
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Thierry Atheist
Posts 644
12 Apr 2017 14:32
| Hi Saladriel, Talk about STEALTH MODE!!!!! A PCIe card that you "plug & play" into x86 PCs? THAT WOULD WORK!!!! Most people have very little desk space, but almost EVERYBODY has at least one free socket on their motherboard. The standalone is 100mm x 120mm, fitting wise, NOT A PROBLEM!! A Vampire 68080 BRIDGEBOARD for all the x86 boxes out there!!!! HOWEVER, the Vampire should have it's OWN USB, ethernet, DIGITAL-VIDEO, SATA (PATA?) ports and SD/CF card sockets (etc.).... Not rely on the PC in any way. But, some SW needs to be written so that the 2 computers could communicate with each other. Basically, you'd be able to use BOTH COMPUTERS SIMULTANEOUSLY! Now THAT'S MULTI-TASKING!!!!!!!
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Thierry Atheist
Posts 644
12 Apr 2017 14:40
| More clearly, they are 2 separate entities. The x86 "Vampire BRIDGEBOARD" is only drawing (leaching) watts (VAMPIRICALLY) from the "host" system. win-doze can DO JUST THAT, doesn't even have to know that it's there. Now THAT'S a PARASITE! ;-) :-DDD
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Michael R
Posts 281
12 Apr 2017 14:45
| It was a crazy idea, but maybe it could work. Only the Apollo team know what is possible. Once the standalone board is done there are many, many possibilities, maybe something like this? Vampire everywhere! ;-)
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Michael R
Posts 281
12 Apr 2017 14:50
| As far as I know AROS 68k can use the 68080 directly. But it's the other non 68k machines that could benefit from the Apollo system (68080 CPU + Super AGA).
AROS can run natively on x86 and PPC. No host OS needed just AROS on fast modern hardware for everyday use and a 68080 pci card for legacy Amiga. AROS would need a driver for the "AMI BRIDGEBOARD". No more UAE.
What type of Vampire cards would be made for Amiga 4000's? PCI or Zorro?
Not sure about the 3DO card. I haven't seen one. I'll check it out.
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Wawa T
Posts 695
12 Apr 2017 16:50
| Marlon Beijer wrote:
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That would be awesome if it would work. 68k apps might still have to be sandboxed so they call the registers on the CPU-card instead. I don't know how hard that would be.
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what for? dont you have software emulators that on x86 beat the real hardware speedwise by magnitudes? what do you need pci card to sandbox amiga 68k software on a pc, when there is uae? apollo/vampire is a very sensible project/product as is. it was certainly hard enough to brig it up, we should be thankful, instead to demand of a team any useless phantasies, just because it could be done.
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Wawa T
Posts 695
12 Apr 2017 17:00
| Michael R wrote:
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As far as I know AROS 68k can use the 68080 directly. |
what would be the reason for aros68k if it couldnt execute 68k code (without emu)??
But it's the other non 68k machines that could benefit from the Apollo system (68080 CPU + Super AGA). |
i dont see any much benefit to have saga emulation on a pc, even though it would be more sensible to implement it in software. superaga is mostly amiga chipset + rtg, so uae can handle most of it already. | AROS can run natively on x86 and PPC. |
while ppc is mostly unmaintained due to lack of interest as of today.
whats wrong with uae? its a very very fine piece of software. very helpful. why do you wish it away, just to replace it with some clumsy pci hardware you have to invest in developing and producking first. just for the sake of it? dont we have enough handicaps and too few resources? | What type of Vampire cards would be made for Amiga 4000's? PCI or Zorro? |
030 cpu slot, unfortunatelly, as it seriously limits ram expansion, as it seems.
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Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 6219
12 Apr 2017 17:23
| wawa t wrote:
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| What type of Vampire cards would be made for Amiga 4000's? PCI or Zorro? |
030 cpu slot, unfortunatelly, as it seriously limits ram expansion, as it seems.
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No, the Limit is the AMIGA OS.
AMIGA OS in its current form does not support more than 2048 MB memory. But we can live with this right?
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Wawa T
Posts 695
12 Apr 2017 18:34
| gunnar, you know what im talking about. its the 128mb memory map reserved on the a3/4k for the 030 cpu bus, not the limit of the os being 31bit addressable memory space altogether. if you have found a way to lift this hardcoded cpu slot limit on those machines, none else s been able to, im among the first to be happy to hear that.
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Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 6219
12 Apr 2017 18:55
| wawa t wrote:
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none else s been able to, im among the first to be happy to hear that.
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We know no limits.
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Thierry Atheist
Posts 644
12 Apr 2017 19:33
| "Only AMIGA makes it possible." Vampire (68080)
Gunnar von Boehn wrote:
| We know no limits.
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Works for me. :-DDD
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Thierry Atheist
Posts 644
12 Apr 2017 19:46
| The idea is that the Vampire 68080 PCIe card ONLY needs the windows (or MAC-OS) box for electricity, it would operate 100% independent of the computer it's in. However, software could be written so that it interfaces with it to varying degrees, such that it could be opened in "picture-in-picture" mode, or operate on another screen (multi-monitor output), or someone makes a FPGA Video Toaster combo card, there are multitude possibilities!!!! AMIGA'S . . . BACK!!!
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Documentation about the Vampire hardware