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Vampire Vs. UAEpage  1 2 3 4 5 6 

Thierry Atheist

Posts 311
05 Apr 2017 04:40


There are pretty much ZERO marketing statistics in the World Of Amiga products.


Marcus Sackrow

Posts 5
05 Apr 2017 09:17


Gunnar von Boehn wrote:

Marcus Sackrow wrote:

  my Vampire Speed tests:
 

 
  Every test is different. :-)

For sure! Don't get me wrong, my aim was not a complain or so ;-) I'm very satisfied with the results


  Please mind that if your test includes memory allocation, like BinaryTree might do then you measure not CPU speed but mainly the different of the memory allocation in the OS/Exec versions.

yes, thats the main purpose of the binarytree test (binary trees are really common these days) the exec version of the 68k systems are more or less the same (all OS3.9) for me the MOS 68k emulation was rather interesting, especially the difference of the two tests.

The fankuch test uses 10 threads which makes the MOS slow, because the 68k process start seems to be slow in MOS 68k. On Vampire it does not make big difference.

I have much more tests here but many of them using files and the speed depend more or less on the HD speed (on classic Amiga systems, because still too slow) or need an FPU.

 
  Can you share the source, disasm of the workloop, exe of the test?

hmm I can but as I wrote in my blog it's just sources from benchmarks game
fankuch: EXTERNAL LINK  BinaryTree: EXTERNAL LINK 
I guess you prefer C ;-) you can search for yourself on the page for suiteable C source, but the faster one use some features/cheats not available for 68k/Amiga ;-)
EXTERNAL LINK  EXTERNAL LINK 
but of course I can also supply my compile executable if you are interrested.


M Rickan

Posts 66
05 Apr 2017 20:45


Michael R wrote:

  Are you asking about hardware or custom chips?

Neither specifically - ultimately it's the ability to run legacy software that is the real litmus test. Old floppy drives and power supplies are pretty much irrelevant now unless you are maintaining older systems.

Compatibility-wise, the longstanding challenge has always been AGA but I simply wondered if there was anything that would always be off the table.


David Wright

Posts 40
05 Apr 2017 21:12


I hope this is considered friendly. I just ordered an ACA 500 from them yesterday and this is my email today:
Dear customer,

thank you for your payment - your order ID  ... has been shipped.

The tracking number is:...

Registered mail can be tracked unde  EXTERNAL LINK while it's still in Germany. Please note that the tracking number may change when it has reached your country - your local post service may help you translating this tracking number into a local tracking number.

DHL tracking numbers can be tracked o  EXTERNAL LINK . Please note tha  EXTERNAL LINK DOES NOT FIND our tracking numbers, because they are shipped from Germany.

Thanks again for your business - please recommend us!

your team from Individual Computers GmbH Germany.

Something to strive for. Remember, there isn't any recourse if something goes wrong such as contacting Credit card bank to rescind order because this is cash paypal. People need reassurance, that's all. Not questioning integrity of Majsta or Apollo.


Michael R

Posts 140
06 Apr 2017 06:14


David Wright wrote:

  I hope this is considered friendly. I just ordered an ACA 500 from them yesterday and this is my email today:
  Dear customer,
 
  thank you for your payment - your order ID  ... has been shipped.
 
  The tracking number is:...
 
  Registered mail can be tracked unde  EXTERNAL LINK while it's still in Germany. Please note that the tracking number may change when it has reached your country - your local post service may help you translating this tracking number into a local tracking number.
 
  DHL tracking numbers can be tracked o  EXTERNAL LINK . Please note tha  EXTERNAL LINK DOES NOT FIND our tracking numbers, because they are shipped from Germany.
 
  Thanks again for your business - please recommend us!
 
  your team from Individual Computers GmbH Germany.
 
  Something to strive for. Remember, there isn't any recourse if something goes wrong such as contacting Credit card bank to rescind order because this is cash paypal. People need reassurance, that's all. Not questioning integrity of Majsta or Apollo.
 

 
  Actually, I think your comments are right on target. I have been considering the same thing lately. Any legitimate company such as Individual Computers follow business protocol. They request money when a product is available and immediately after payment is made they send a payment confirmation and a valid customer order number. I have bought several items from Individual computers and I never felt neglected until after their half-finished product arrived, specifically Indivision AGA for my A1200. There were no usage instructions and no software! There were instructions to install the product after that I was on my own! But at least they confirmed my order and shipped the product. I have no doubt that the Apollo Team will build accelerator cards and send them to the people that paid for them because other people have received theirs. However, they aren't doing business in a very professional manner. Just my opinion!

That's not to say that Individual Computers don't have good products either. Several years ago I bought an Amiga High Density floppy drive from them and it came with instructions and software. It has worked well all this time. Great product. I'll probably buy from them again. :-)


Thierry Atheist

Posts 311
06 Apr 2017 07:35


Hi David Wright, Michael R,

You might want to repost this in the right conversation thread.

The topic here is "Vampire Vs. UAE".


Thierry Atheist

Posts 311
06 Apr 2017 08:53


Olaf Schoenweiss wrote:
I think FPGA comes nearest to the "real thing", that is the main advantage compared to emulation.
...
Regarding performance, I do not see FPGA beating UAE on fast hardware in foreseeable future but that is not the question.
...
I had a discussion with a known "NG" game developer who currently not supports 68k because too slow. When I mentioned UAE and that emulation outperforms even many of the PPC alternatives he admitted that emulation might be fast enough but why running a game in emulation if you can use the host system for running it?

Hi Olaf,

The KEY to winning everyone over from UAE (and other AMIGA equipment) is that with the Vampire hardware, we are REDEFINING AMIGA.

There are pretty much only 5 varieties of VAMPIRE, versus HUNDREDS of differing speed AMIGAS out there NOW! I STILL don't believe in the STABILITY of UAE. I mean, I have to boot up a 15+ gigabyte OS to use a ~700K OS?!??!!!!! ABSURD!!!!

Vampire boots up in under 10 seconds, shuts down in half of one second and everything in between is PURE GOLD!

You haven't just made the BEST AMIGA but a UNIFYING one as well.

When the dust settles, only the Vampire walks.


Olaf Schoenweiss
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 304
06 Apr 2017 09:35


you are Vampire owner and using it?

Sorry it nerves me on a lot of forums that people praising products they do not own and even are not willing to buy

and the nonsense you spread about Windows all the time...


Thierry Atheist

Posts 311
06 Apr 2017 10:13


Olaf Schoenweiss wrote:
you are Vampire owner and using it?

No. No.
Olaf Schoenweiss wrote:
Sorry it nerves me on a lot of forums that people praising products they do not own and even are not willing to buy

Me not willing to buy? You are talking about someone else. I want to buy the Vampire FPGA 68080 standalone motherboard. I have said that many times.
Olaf Schoenweiss wrote:
and the nonsense you spread about Windows all the time...

Everything I have said negative about windoze is 100% accurate. It is an abomination.

I can't think of anything good to say about it.


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 2448
06 Apr 2017 10:20


Gentlemen,

I know its sometimes not easy, but please lets try to stay on topic of the thread and please not hijack them.

Many thanks in advance



David Wright

Posts 40
06 Apr 2017 15:07


Boy did I stray. Apologies.


Michael R

Posts 140
07 Apr 2017 21:06


Sorry, talking about products from other companies is off topic and comparing the advantages and disadvantages of using Windows is likewise off topic. Apologies for that.

Now back to the topic - Vampire vs. UAE (or WinUAE).
The best thing about WinUAE is that it WORKS! We may have to use a super-computer to use it though! The 68080 however runs the code for the game or application natively, so the processing power can be much less to achieve a similar result.

It would be interesting to look inside WinUAE or UAE to see how it intercepts the code intended for the 68k and custom chips and converts it into code that can be used on other computer architectures. How did they implement AGA support? How does the Copper and Blitter work? Just some things I've wondered about.

Which is better WinUAE or Vampire card? Perhaps both depending on your needs. WinUAE has advantages and so does the Vampire card. UAE can be used for experimentation, preparing SD/CF cards, etc. Vampire cards can be used for fun! ;-)


John Heritage

Posts 94
08 Apr 2017 00:08


I'd be willing to bet that a modern PC emulating the Amiga at the speed of the 68060-68080 consumes more power than the native hardware with Vampire ...

(If the 68060 came out in 1994 - you literally are using a super computer from 1994 to emulate that chip). 


Michael R

Posts 140
08 Apr 2017 00:59


John Heritage wrote:

I'd be willing to bet that a modern PC emulating the Amiga at the speed of the 68060-68080 consumes more power than the native hardware with Vampire ...
 
  (If the 68060 came out in 1994 - you literally are using a super computer from 1994 to emulate that chip). 

If the 68080 FPGA had come out in 1994 it would have been a marvel of technology and everyone would have wanted one! But then again, it's a marvel now and everyone in Amiga-land wants one! ;-)


Michael R

Posts 140
08 Apr 2017 17:42


I looked at the source code for WinUAE but I just glanced at it. It has many code modules but it isn't any more intense or complicated than PaintDotNet or my Virtual Disk Image Explorer program (a file manager that creates and interacts with disk images. I'd to eventually include adf and hdf as well).

WinUAE is mostly C++ with some ASM assembly code in certain modules. The blitter code looks unintelligible to me, but planar to chunky and screenmodes looks familiar.

I also read about the current and planned features of SAGA, Super AGA chipset, a softcore re-implementation of the AGA chipset with some enhancements. We already have chunky RTG graphics for Workbench compatible with Picasso modes. Planar graphics for all original AGA modes is planned but may be in the works based on the Video Planar Modes Teasers. In that respect WinUAE and 68080 + SAGA are similar. They both process original 68k code from games or apps, enhance it and display it on screen. They do this in different ways but both have their advantages.

Originally UAE meant "Unusable Amiga Emulator" because it barely worked, but it has evolved through hard work over the years into a very useful tool. The same may be true of 68080 + Super AGA chipset. It will continue to evolve and mature through hard work and determination. Sooner rather than later it will open up many possibilities as far as new hardware and software for our Amigas.

Personally, I intend to use my Vampire 500 and WinUAE in conjunction for various tasks to which they are well suited. They are complementary not mutually exclusive! Computing is fun again! :-)




Wawa T

Posts 233
08 Apr 2017 19:07


Personally, I intend to use my Vampire 500 and WinUAE in conjunction for various tasks to which they are well suited. They are complementary not mutually exclusive! Computing is fun again! :-)

very.. good.. observation!


M Rickan

Posts 66
08 Apr 2017 20:15


Michael R wrote:

  It would be interesting to look inside WinUAE or UAE to see how it intercepts the code intended for the 68k and custom chips and converts it into code that can be used on other computer architectures...

I would also love to get a general sense of how the Vampire FPGA is implemented as well.

In an abstract sense, I understand the workflow but... is much of the effort reverse-engineering by analyzing the existing hardware or is it largely starting from a clean slate, consulting documentation and developing through trial and error?

Also, can/does the Vampire effort draw from the experiences of UAE?


Michael R

Posts 140
08 Apr 2017 20:50


m rickan wrote:

Michael R wrote:

  It would be interesting to look inside WinUAE or UAE to see how it intercepts the code intended for the 68k and custom chips and converts it into code that can be used on other computer architectures...
 

 
  I would also love to get a general sense of how the Vampire FPGA is implemented as well.
 
  In an abstract sense, I understand the workflow but... is much of the effort reverse-engineering by analyzing the existing hardware or is it largely starting from a clean slate, consulting documentation and developing through trial and error?
 
  Also, can/does the Vampire effort draw from the experiences of UAE?

Those are good questions. Since I know little about the insides of a Cyclone III, I can only guess that it is a hardware framework that accepts programming that turns it into gate arrays and circuits that are similar to the physical structures of the CPU that the FPGA "CPU" corresponds to, the original CPU that is re-implemented in the FPGA.

So how do these programmable gate arrays and circuits reproduce the functionality of Amiga custom chips? In a sense, since the FPGA itself is "customizable" it too is a custom chip. How would the design team implement this? Do they have to know the exact internal architecture of the original custom chips so it can be reproduced, or can they approximate their own design for the Super AGA chipset that serves the same function? Also, can any of the code from WinUAE (UAE) be useful in that design process to help understand the functionality of Amiga custom chips?

From what I have read about Amiga AGA it uses 8 bitplans (256 colors from a palette of 16 million). It also uses fast 32 bit memory access to provide video bandwidth for those 8 bitplanes. Although AGA supported planar modes, it didn't effectively support chunky modes. The Teaser videos we saw recently showed OCS/ECS (32 colors) modified and enhaced to 8 bitplanes (256 colors) and output at 1024x768. That's basically AGA output. But this is from the Amiga video signal. How close are they to producing these planar modes internally using only SAGA and no Amiga custom chips? Maybe the Gold3 core will tell us more? ;-)



Thierry Atheist

Posts 311
08 Apr 2017 21:54


Hi Michael R,

I simply ascribe it to MAGIC.

AmigaOS perfectly compliments the custom chips designed for it.

And there is yet anything out there that to date, bests it!


Michael R

Posts 140
09 Apr 2017 01:17


Thierry Atheist wrote:

Hi Michael R,
 
  I simply ascribe it to MAGIC.
 
  AmigaOS perfectly compliments the custom chips designed for it.
 
  And there is yet anything out there that to date, bests it!

Amiga OS 3.x on the 68080 + SAGA will beat Amiga OS on the original custom chips. Amiga OS itself could use some serious updates. Workbench compilations like Classic WB, etc and WB replacements like Scalos try to fill that gap.

  No doubt what the Apollo team have done so far is awesome! What they will have achieved when SAGA fully supports the original AGA modes and new enhanced AGA modes will be Miraculous!

A couple hardware guys and a couple software guys and several testers and support techicians spread across several time zones will make Amiga history one day soon! They will achieve what large companies like Commodore and Amiga Inc failed to do! Even Dave Haynie will be amazed when the Apollo Team presents "Super AGA" to the computer world, the first new 68k Amiga chipset since AGA! It isn't AAA. It isn't Hombre. It's much better. It's Super AGA!



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