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Documentation about the Vampire hardware

Vampire Vs. UAEpage  1 2 3 4 5 6 

M Rickan

Posts 177
01 Apr 2017 21:51


I was having a weekly state-of-the-Amiga conversation with a friend  who both has a V2+ on backorder and actively uses WinUAE. We got into a bit of a tangent about the relative merits of Amiga emulation using FPGA vs. software.

Neither of us is particularly well-informed when it comes to the architectures of either approach but we concluded that while UAE has evolved over the years to become comprehensive in its emulation, it is more limited in terms of performance.

The Vampire on the other hand, has the potential to gain in compatibility over time but also jump ahead in performance as  with faster FPGA processors and the potential for ASIC.

That's oversimplifying things a wee bit but we were curious to see if we were remotely on the right track...?


Thierry Atheist

Posts 644
01 Apr 2017 23:28


I completely agree with your statement.

I go further than that. Know how when a computer imitates another computer or dedicated game system, and it has to be some fairly ridiculous amount faster than the computer or game system it is trying to reproduce? I firmly think that, the standalone 68080 Vampire (Arria 10) won't be possible to beat even on a 3.4 GHz i7!!!!! There just won't be anyone willing to program anything that complex for it! Even then, I think it would need some coding to be done in assembly!!

And, it would JUST NOT BE possible, for it to keep up with an ASIC 68080 that ran at 1-1.5 GHz. :full stop:

The only thing we'd want after that is, 1) faster ASICs, 2) An FPGA NewTek Video Toaster!!!!!

windows running underneath UAE is the main obstacle to emulating a FAST Amiga on 3.4 GHz and higher CPUs.

I look forward WITH GLEE to the day I can pack up windows, for it never to be heard from again!!!!

The FUTURE:

I predict, 5,000 Vampires (all models combined) sold by December 2018.

A Kickstarter (or other crowdfunding) done in 2018 for an ASIC!!!! Depending on how much they raise, the ASIC will be between 1 to 2 GHz! (side benefit, 128K-256K L2 cache, WOOOO HOOOOO!)


Michael R

Posts 281
02 Apr 2017 03:39


I agree as well. I have used WinUAE (I especially like Save State) and I have a V500 V2+ on order, waiting for it to arrive. My current setup is WinUAE on Windows 7 64bit, core i5 at 2.6 GHz and 8GB RAM. WinUAE runs ok. But Vampire cards will beat it running the same Workbench setup as far as speed, and Apollo Core will improve over time. I believe the Arria 10 runs internally at 1.5 GHz, not sure. But then Apollo Core runs at a slower relative speed. That's how I understand it. A new ASIC processor based on Apollo Core which may appear in a year or two would be capable of much greater speed. A 68080 at 1.5GHz may be possible, but either way it will faster than what we have.

That's the exciting future, but first the Apollo Core must be stable and bug free, and the Apollo Team has to add an FPU. The SAGA chipset will also need to be complete and running well before considering an ASIC. But the Apollo Team have achieved many things and they work quickly! The future will be here quickly too, but I hope my Vampire card arrives first so I can join the fun!

I also predict that total Vampire orders for all versions up to V500 V2+ will reach 5000 this year! But wouldn't it be nice if sales of the new V1200 card by themselves exceed 5000 by the end of 2017. And sometime next years sales of the standalone board might reach 10,000+ or maybe I'm overly optimistic? :-)


Olaf Schoenweiss

Posts 690
02 Apr 2017 13:02


I think FPGA comes nearest to the "real thing", that is the main advantage compared to emulation. It is more a emotional thing than a technical question. Regarding performance, I do not see FPGA beating UAE on fast hardware in foreseeable future but that is not the question. I think both are two sides of a coin. I had a discussion with a known "NG" game developer who currently not supports 68k because too slow. When I mentioned UAE and that emulation outperforms even many of the PPC alternatives he admitted that emulation might be fast enough but why running a game in emulation if you can use the host system for running it? He said he will look at Vampire in future. In my view it is strange suddenly to ask for reasons to use 68k because why using MorphOS, AmigaOS or AROS at all if you own Mac, Linux or Windows but anyway perhaps a successful new 68k hardware platform might motivate developers again to support 68k with both Vampire and UAE as potential platforms.


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 6207
02 Apr 2017 14:12


m rickan wrote:

We got into a bit of a tangent about the relative merits of Amiga emulation using FPGA vs. software.

Lets first understand that FPGA are _not_ emulating.




Thierry Atheist

Posts 644
02 Apr 2017 14:42


Michael R wrote:
I also predict that total Vampire orders for all versions up to V500 V2+ will reach 5000 this year! But wouldn't it be nice if sales of the new V1200 card by themselves exceed 5000 by the end of 2017. And sometime next years sales of the standalone board might reach 10,000+ or maybe I'm overly optimistic? :-)

Hi Michael R,

I LOVE this POSITIVE ATTITUDE!

While I too would LOVE to see 5,000 A1200 Vampires this year, I think that there is a major problem with that projection. There might not be that many A1200 users?!?!!

Follow me here; MANY people that own A1200's, also own a few other Amigas. So, every person that owns more than one Amiga, may buy at most, 2 accelerators. If they've already bought the A600 or A500 68080, then that might be it for them.

I'm thinking;
~o,900 A600 Vampires
~1,200 A500, A2000, A1000 Vampires
~1,500 A1200 Vampires
~3,000 standalones (full motherboards)!
~6,600 total!

If they can increase production (which they seem to have accomplished), maybe this many by this December!

I think that quite a few stanadalone motherboard buyers will get 2 of them. Me for instance, I want 2. And, NO ONE will be able to resist the ASIC 68080 when it becomes available!!!

6,600 is the LOW END.... That's what I believe.

That's at least 4,000 individual Amiga Vampire users, I think.

What will happen on the software front could be quite interesting, considering the highly increased amount of user activity.


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 6207
02 Apr 2017 15:06


Michael R wrote:

The SAGA chipset will also need to be complete and running well before considering an ASIC.

FPGA are very good for making GFX chips.
You can make a GXF running at 150 MHz in FPGA.
And you can beat all existing Zorro AMIGA GFX /PC-chips easily.

So for performance an FPGA GFX chip is more than enough.



Michael R

Posts 281
02 Apr 2017 16:43


That's true. At the moment the number of Amiga enthusiasts owning one or more machines is at a low point. Over the years 68k Amigas have been starved for hardware and software because developers weren't willing to commit time, effort and money providing products for a small user base. In turn many people lost hope and left the Amiga scene. That unfortunate downward spiral continued up to this point. But now that trend may reverse itself. Vampire cards will attract new users, or entice old users and developers to return to the 68k Amiga.

I generously estimated 5000 sales of the Vampire 1200 because I considered new users and old users and developers who would return. So if there are 3000 direct sales, 2000 more will rush out to ebay or wherever to buy Amiga 1200's just to be able to buy a Vampire 1200! Then there are the A3000 and A4000 owners. The Apollo Team are probably saying to themselves, "5000 V1200 and 10,000 standalones in two years? We need to ramp up production. New customers are appearing out of nowhere!"

The more Vampire cards out there in the hands of users will create momentum and spark interest. Maybe a few well placed "gifts" of Vampire cards will help advertise the capabilities of these accelerator cards. If all this is by word of mouth, imagine if the Apollo Team began aggressively advertising!

But best of all, now that Vampire cards have set the standard and the Apollo Team have proven that they can create a superior product at a reasonable price through hard work and some creative engineering other developers may take notice. Any new Amiga hardware will need to produce HD graghics through DVI or DIGITAL-VIDEO at a reasonable price. They will need to have a finished product with good documentation, drivers, and attractive packaging! I'm thinking Indivion AGA. For the money I paid it wasn't packaged well, didn't have much documentation, no usage instructions and no software or drivers in the box! Now that Vampire cards have set the standard it looks like an unfinished, half-done careless product. Hopefully, gone are the days when Amiga users are left to do all the dirty work to set up hardware! Now we expect finished products like everyone else. The Apollo Team have set the standard that we now come to expect.


Michael R

Posts 281
02 Apr 2017 17:01


Yes. FPGA is well suited for graphics chips, especially for Amiga 68k graphics. They produce a reasonable speed and good performance and they are programmable. They can improve performance over time.

I wonder if it's possible to achieve 400MHz to 500MHz performance with an Apollo Core FPGA, maybe using Arria 10? Or can that type of speed increase only be possible with a Apollo Core 68080 ASIC design?

I was reading about FPGA vs ASIC comparisons here:

EXTERNAL LINK 
"ASIC: An application-specific integrated circuit (ASIC) is an integrated circuit designed for a particular use, rather than intended for general-purpose use. Processors, RAM, ROM, etc are examples of ASICs.

FPGA vs ASIC

Speed
ASIC rules out FPGA in terms of speed. As ASIC are designed for a specific application they can be optimized to maximum, hence we can have high speed in ASIC designs. ASIC can have high speed clocks."



Thierry Atheist

Posts 644
02 Apr 2017 17:56


Hi Michael R,

I just looked on the internet, and apparently, the 68060 has L1 cache, not L2... I didn't know that there was such a thing as L1 cache until today!!! I always thought that the 68060 cache was L2.

The ASIC could have 128K to 256K of L1 cache!!!! IMAGINE THAT!!!!!

To get that amount of cache in an FPGA, would probably, if possible, cost a FORTUNE!!!!!!!!!

An ASIC 68080 will be VERY VERY VERY F A S T !


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 6207
02 Apr 2017 18:03


Michael R wrote:

  I wonder if it's possible to achieve 400MHz to 500MHz performance with an Apollo Core FPGA,
 

 
Comparing Speed is very complex.
 
Right now the 68080 in the Vampire2 can run at clock 78-100 MHz.
 
The 68060 was a good CPU but the 68080 is a lot more capable.
In many applications the Vampire will give you a speed like an 68060@150 MHz.
 
AMMX can give a huge speed up!
 
Routines / Programs which make good use of AMMX can reach already today the performance of an 68060 @ 500 MHz.
 
 
The 68030 is a pretty weak CPU.
68080 gives you today already over 500 MHz 68030 Performance.
If the program uses AMMX you can reach performance where the 68030 would need several GigaHerz.
 
If you compare with the 68000 than the 68080 reaches over Gigaherz perfromance even without using AMMX.


Michael R

Posts 281
02 Apr 2017 18:26


That's true. It is difficult to gauge relative "clock speed" for an Amiga 68k FPGA considering speeds may vary according to which situation and which application we are using. I assume the Apollo Team intends to incorporate an FPU into the 68080. The FPU, from what I've read, will speed up rendering and graphics applications significantly, such as Cinema 4D. An integrated FPU might also help in bitwise operations to convert ECS/OCS to 8bitplanar or 8bits chunky output. Working in computer assisted design, graphics performance is important to me.


Michael R

Posts 281
02 Apr 2017 18:41


As far as potential customers for the Apollo Core products, we forgot to mention "uncounted" Amiga 1200 owners, Atari 68k users, and maybe Mac 68k users. How many people own stock A1200's who, over the years, refused to upgrade them because it wasn't cost effective? Maybe they used their A1200 to convert 880k Amiga disks to adf. Otherwise their Amiga sat on the desk keeping papers from blowing away! Now Vampire accelerator cards are an irresistible opportunity to upgrade!

Perhaps it would be possible using VampireTool or some other menu to switch between "Amiga 68k" or "Atari 68k" or "Mac 68k" modes and Roms are kept in a monitored directory. Then the appropriate MapRom is loaded and other configurations inside Apollo Core depending on which mode is selected? That would create a huge increase in potential users! Are we talking 20,000 or 30,000 customers or many more? We'll have to wait and see, but the future is looking very good to me!


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 6207
02 Apr 2017 18:45


Michael R wrote:

That's true. It is difficult to gauge relative "clock speed" for an Amiga 68k FPGA considering speeds may vary according to which situation and which application we are using.

Yes correct.

Michael R wrote:

I assume the Apollo Team intends to incorporate an FPU into the 68080.

Yes we have an FPU.
68080 FPU is fully pipelined and can reach at @100 MHz Vampire about 300 MHz 68060 FPU speed.

Michael R wrote:

The FPU, from what I've read, will speed up rendering and graphics applications significantly, such as Cinema 4D.

Yes for some 3D applications FPU is very important.

Michael R wrote:

An integrated FPU might also help in bitwise operations to convert ECS/OCS to 8bitplanar or 8bits chunky output.

PLANAR and Chunky GFX also GFX conversions are integer code.
So FPU does not change this.



M Rickan

Posts 177
02 Apr 2017 21:50


Gunnar von Boehn wrote:

  Lets first understand that FPGA are _not_ emulating.

True... what term do you use for it in the case of the Vampire? Reimplementation?



M Rickan

Posts 177
02 Apr 2017 21:55


Thierry Atheist wrote:

  An ASIC 68080 will be VERY VERY VERY F A S T !

I don't think Gunnar has ever estimated the performance difference, but I'd be interested in a ballpark guess for typical moves from FPGA to ASIC.




Michael R

Posts 281
02 Apr 2017 22:26


m rickan wrote:

Gunnar von Boehn wrote:

  Lets first understand that FPGA are _not_ emulating.
 

 
  True... what term do you use for it in the case of the Vampire? Reimplementation?
 

That's a good question. The Apollo Core isn't emulating a Motorola 68k CPU, it IS an m68k extraordinaire, with added features and functions. Maybe "reimplemented" and "reimagined" are good terms for the 68080 CPU?



Michael R

Posts 281
02 Apr 2017 22:41


I must say that in 2003 I attended an Amiga computer convention. While I was there I was introduced to the first FPGA that I had seen in action. It was a "reimplementation" of a Commodore 64 and the work was being done by a young lady named Gerry? I didn't think much of the c64 and I thought to myself, "this FPGA stuff won't ever amount to much!" Oh was I ever wrong about that! The Vampire accelerator cards are very impressive! :-)


Nixus Minimax

Posts 416
03 Apr 2017 05:45


An ASIC would be roughly 20 times faster than the FPGA-implementation. And I wouldn't call it "reimplementation" but just "implementation" because the first would mean that it is modelled after the Motorola CPUs which it isn't. The 080 uses implementation details that no 68k before it used such as an instruction cache that holds predecoded instructions.


Niclas A
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 219
03 Apr 2017 06:50


Michael R wrote:

I must say that in 2003 I attended an Amiga computer convention. While I was there I was introduced to the first FPGA that I had seen in action. It was a "reimplementation" of a Commodore 64 and the work was being done by a young lady named Gerry? I didn't think much of the c64 and I thought to myself, "this FPGA stuff won't ever amount to much!" Oh was I ever wrong about that! The Vampire accelerator cards are very impressive! :-)

Wow you met Jeri Ellsworth?
She is a geek ledgend :)


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