 Documentation about the Vampire hardware |
| Vampire As a Classic Accelerator? Without RTG? | |
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Pete Morgan
Posts 22
09 Aug 2020 20:00
| Hi guys, I have a quick question... It is possible to use the Vampire 1200 as a classic style CPU and RAM accelerator? IE: Temporarily disable the RTG, so everything comes from the RGB port without switching? I realise this may seem an odd question, I'd like to do some streaming with my V1200 setup and the switching between RTG and RGB is a nightmare, esp as I don't seem to be able to get the Vampire to directly output to my capture card (without an upscaler) which again makes it more difficult. If there is a way of toggling the RTG off, so that all the output comes through the RGB, then this would solve my issues. Just thought I'd ask :-) Regards, Pete.
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Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 6258
09 Aug 2020 20:02
| Pete Morgan wrote:
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It is possible to use the Vampire 1200 as a classic style CPU and RAM accelerator?
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Yes of course.
Per default all video comes to RGB.
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Jamie Chapman
Posts 69
09 Aug 2020 20:08
| I guess remove the monitor from the folder and then it won't use the digital out ?
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Pete Morgan
Posts 22
09 Aug 2020 21:19
| Thanks Gunnar, I just realised I can set PAL output from Prefs (I really don't know why I didn't think of this before!).
Is this what you meant?
I do seem to have a HUGE amount of screen tear / redraw though on my CRT? When moving windows etc. I'm using Coffin v56 BTW at the moment.
Or am I missing something really obvious and being a dumb dumb?
When my system boots (unless I set PAL) it automatically defaults to RTG DIGITAL-VIDEO?
Thanks again!
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Pat 3657
Posts 50
10 Aug 2020 10:52
| Is guess Gunnar meant simply to not use RTG if you don't want it. Set your Workbench screen to PAL or NTSC (or to another Amiga-native screenmode that is in your Devs:Monitors folder) with Prefs:Screenmode.
Move vampiregfx from Devs:Monitors to Storage:Monitors if you don't want RTG to be available anyways.
Finally unplug your H.D.M.I. connection. Things to consider:
Vampire will still output its boot logo via DIGITAL-VIDEO even if you uninstalled vampiregfx. This may be the reason why your system defaults to DIGITAL-VIDEO on startup.
Some newer software (mostly labeled "Something.RTG") needs RTG to run.
e.g. run ScummVM.AGA instead of ScummVM.RTG if available. About screen tearing:
I guess that is a normal occurence when using Amiga's native output.
Amiga RGB doesn't support V-Sync and screen redraw mechanisms work differently. Don't expect window redraws to run as smoothly as on RTG screens. This has nothing to do with using a CRT.
As you have an AGA machine try lowering the number of colours in Prefs:Screenmode. A Workbench screen with 256 colours is very slow.
As a benefit you will have more Chipram left for games, etc.
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Pete Morgan
Posts 22
10 Aug 2020 12:08
| Hi Pat, so yes your right, and as I say I realised I was being an idiot re the PAL from pref thing after Gunnar's post. But I will try some of those suggestions, thank you. Re the screen redraw... it's really bad. I've used workbench for a while and it's not usually like this, so if I move a window everything redraws as I move... it's not normal. I know what you mean about the colours, and it was the first thing I tried (along with different resolutions) but it's exactly the same no matter what. I've been considering a fresh start, so I may do an install of OS 3.1.4 and try it that way because I have been using coffin for convenience...see what happens. I guess the other thing is finding a capture card that is known to work directly, if anyone has any suggestions? I have seen mention of the Elgato HD60s I think... but I would like to confirm it? Many thanks! Pat 3657 wrote:
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Is guess Gunnar meant simply to not use RTG if you don't want it.
Set your Workbench screen to PAL or NTSC (or to another Amiga-native screenmode that is in your Devs:Monitors folder) with Prefs:Screenmode.
Move vampiregfx from Devs:Monitors to Storage:Monitors if you don't want RTG to be available anyways.
Finally unplug your H.D.M.I. connection.
Things to consider:
Vampire will still output its boot logo via DIGITAL-VIDEO even if you uninstalled vampiregfx. This may be the reason why your system defaults to DIGITAL-VIDEO on startup.
Some newer software (mostly labeled "Something.RTG") needs RTG to run.
e.g. run ScummVM.AGA instead of ScummVM.RTG if available.
About screen tearing:
I guess that is a normal occurence when using Amiga's native output.
Amiga RGB doesn't support V-Sync and screen redraw mechanisms work differently. Don't expect window redraws to run as smoothly as on RTG screens. This has nothing to do with using a CRT.
As you have an AGA machine try lowering the number of colours in Prefs:Screenmode. A Workbench screen with 256 colours is very slow.
As a benefit you will have more Chipram left for games, etc.
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Pat 3657
Posts 50
10 Aug 2020 19:22
| Your welcome. Vampire1200 owners should help each other, shouldn't they ;)
Speaking of... I'm using coffin56 with my vampire, but while setting the workbench to PAL interlace with 16 colours I wouldn't say it's unusable...
How does workbench "perform" when booting from your 3.1.4 workbench disk?
In default 4-col-PAL-Hires it should fly.
There are some tweaks/patches in coffin that influence redraws.
Take a look into Prefs/MCP - this is a "collection" of system patches - open the tab "patches" and disable "solid window sizing" and "solid window moving". After that you should only see an outline of the window when moving or resizing it.I'm no expert in recording, but is Elgato able to record analog video?
As you want to record from Amiga RGB, you first need to "digitize" the signals. Start with a RGB2SCART cable (any Amiga seller or ebay has those), then add a SCART2DIGITAL-VIDEO upscaler e.g. OSSC. After that you have a digital signal an Elgato can handle.
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Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 6258
11 Aug 2020 11:33
| One thing should be clear.
The Amiga chipset was made in the 80th.
The speed of the PAL display is based on the speed of the Amiga chipset.
Maybe we forgot how fast the Amiga was?
Lets give some numbers to better compare:
OCS memory bandwidth max= 7MB
AGA memory bandwidth max= 28MB
SAGA V1200 memory bandwidth max= 600 MB
As you can clearly see... the Amiga memory is much slower.
So ofcourse PAL display and redraw will appear feel like frozen molasses compared to the Graphic display on the Vampire DIGITAL-VIDEO.
The memory is 20 times slower...
So what did we expect?Of course draw and refresh of AGA will be super slow on your A1200
if you compare it to the speed of the SAGA Vampire display. And also mind that some Distros like Coffin will enable some nice looking eye-candy. They will have nice looking, multi colored icons, they might have nice looking WB background images.
These "extras" cost performance.
While you might not have felled the cost for these extras on the fast Vampire - running them on the A1200 will create a feel-able slowdown.
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Rod March
Posts 119
11 Aug 2020 12:51
| Hi Pete,
I obviously don't know anything that Gunnar doesn't when it comes the the Vampire, but in case I (or everyone else) is missing your question:
Simply put: yes, you can ignore the Vampire's H.D.M.I. and just use the the Amiga's RGB video as you always did. You will get the PAL AGA display as before but with a super-fast CPU accelerator card (and heaps of RAM). And of course, you'll need a monitor/capture device that can read the Amiga's PAL (or NTSC) signal.
If you are asking if you can route the Amigas native RGB through the H.D.M.I. on the V1200 then the answer is no - there was a little device called 'parasite' that did this (I think), but I believe it was abandoned after it was clear that the eventual plan for core3 is to put the entire chipset onto the Vampire anyway.
(And no, there is obviously no way to route the Vampire's RTG signal out through the Amiga's RGB.)
Setting the RTG monitor to PAL resolutions is still using the Vampire H.D.M.I. If you're getting tearing that's probably just a V-sync problem with your screen and/or capture card.
But if you want to do what I think you want to do, just do a vanilla WB install then plug the Vampire in and your done. (Or as suggested above, simply remove the vampiregfx devs/monitors).
Apologies to all if I'm just spouting useless information here. I'm talking from my experience using the V500 without RTG, V1200 may be a different story.
Have a good week folks!
P.S: Is there a reason that this forum automatically substitutes "H.D.M.I." (if you leave out the periods) for "DIGITAL-VIDEO"??
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Pete Morgan
Posts 22
12 Aug 2020 17:38
| Gunnar,
I'm not complaining or anything, and I know what you mean...
However, I have an 500+, a 1200, a second 1200 with Vampire in a Checkmate 1500, and a CD32 with a TF330 and I have been using Amiga's a while etc... I know what is normal, and what isn't.
I'll reinstall this machine with 3.1.4, it's probably a glitch or something.
Regards.
Gunnar von Boehn wrote:
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One thing should be clear.
The Amiga chipset was made in the 80th.
The speed of the PAL display is based on the speed of the Amiga chipset.
Maybe we forgot how fast the Amiga was?
Lets give some numbers to better compare:
OCS memory bandwidth max= 7MB
AGA memory bandwidth max= 28MB
SAGA V1200 memory bandwidth max= 600 MB
As you can clearly see... the Amiga memory is much slower.
So ofcourse PAL display and redraw will appear feel like frozen molasses compared to the Graphic display on the Vampire DIGITAL-VIDEO.
The memory is 20 times slower...
So what did we expect?
Of course draw and refresh of AGA will be super slow on your A1200
if you compare it to the speed of the SAGA Vampire display.
And also mind that some Distros like Coffin will enable some nice looking eye-candy. They will have nice looking, multi colored icons, they might have nice looking WB background images.
These "extras" cost performance.
While you might not have felled the cost for these extras on the fast Vampire - running them on the A1200 will create a feel-able slowdown.
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Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 6258
13 Aug 2020 10:08
| Pete Morgan wrote:
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Gunnar,
I'm not complaining or anything, and I know what you mean...
However, I have an 500+, a 1200, a second 1200 with Vampire in a Checkmate 1500, and a CD32 with a TF330 and I have been using Amiga's a while etc... I know what is normal, and what isn't. |
Lets try to collect some data:
- What screenmode/resolution did you choose?
- What colordepth did you select?
- Did you select WBpatterns in Background in Windows?
- What icons do you use?
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Knight Stone
(Needs Verification)
Posts 136/ 1
13 Aug 2020 13:00
| I only use RGB, and not DIGITAL-VIDEO. I don't use Coffin, its came on alot, and is a great OS setup, but it's geared towards DIGITAL-VIDEO, and that's fine, if you want that. I don't, i like many other people, wanted a Vampire, so i could have native AGA across RGB, and just use the Vampire for the sheer grunt, there are alot of users who still use CRT's, a fact that i think is sometimes lost on the Apollo team. The simple answer is no, the DIGITAL-VIDEO output can not be sent across RGB, you can't remove the driver/monitor, and then still have all that video speed across RGB, alot of the games you enjoy through the OS, are Vampire.Gfx dependent. You can do what i do, WBClassic, with some bells and whistles, and you can still play newer ports etc. across RGB, like Doom, Descent etc, but the speed of it, wont be as fast, and 50% of them wont work. I can't play Diablo on the Amiga, it doesn't work across RGB, despite there being nothing about RTG in the requirements. i hope you got the answers you need. :)
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