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Documentation about the Vampire hardware

1080p With Vampirepage  1 2 

Edvin AWalter

Posts 18
29 Jan 2020 12:50


Hello,
 
  Anyone successfully used 1080p resolution with Vampire (V1200)?
 
  I know refresh rate needs to be 24Hz and it is not supported by any monitors.
 
  I was thinking to use upscaler, but could anyone confirm which one is working?
 
  This one model does not work, because it needs DIGITAL-VIDEO input 50/60Hz
 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/SCART-DIGITAL-VIDEO-to-DIGITAL-VIDEO-720P-080P-HD-Video-Converter-Adapter-Upscaler-Fr-DVD-HDTV-STB/323552799473?hash=item4b553feaf1:m:m8euuIioMLWrRRpEs7zYdjw


Kyle Blake
(Needs Verification)
Posts 108/ 1
29 Jan 2020 16:44


Sounds like you're trying to use it from AGA?


Philippe Flype
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 280
29 Jan 2020 17:21


Giving fact you can max out at 75MHz (pixelclock) on the V1200, 1080p @ 50Hz is out of range. You can indeed reach it by creating a 1080p @ 24Hz resolution with Picasso96mode tool, and using UMC or CVT, eventually using reduce blanking options. Such vertical freqs are usually accepted on TVs but not Monitors.
 
  Best i get on my V1200, on a LG 24' monitor is : 1440x960 @ 50Hz // without using a DIGITAL-VIDEO amplifier (better not use one).
 
  However, imho, 1080p is not very useful nor enjoyable to use on AmigaOS, unless you'd like try for 'performance' testings. On my side i use 720p which fits better my everyday usages.
 
 
 
  - CVT: EXTERNAL LINK   
  - UMC: EXTERNAL LINK


Edvin AWalter

Posts 18
29 Jan 2020 19:11


Kyle Blake wrote:

Sounds like you're trying to use it from AGA?

No, I use V1200 DIGITAL-VIDEO port with Picasso96


Edvin AWalter

Posts 18
29 Jan 2020 19:13


Thank you for detailed explanation. I just wanted to look how it performs at 1080p. For usage 720p is perfect, maybe everything looks too big on 27' Samsung. I will try 1440x960 and see if it works.

Philippe Flype wrote:

Giving fact you can max out at 75MHz (pixelclock) on the V1200, 1080p @ 50Hz is out of range. You can indeed reach it by creating a 1080p @ 24Hz resolution with Picasso96mode tool, and using UMC or CVT, eventually using reduce blanking options. Such vertical freqs are usually accepted on TVs but not Monitors.
   
  Best i get on my V1200, on a LG 24' monitor is : 1440x960 @ 50Hz // without using a DIGITAL-VIDEO amplifier (better not use one).
   
  However, imho, 1080p is not very useful nor enjoyable to use on AmigaOS, unless you'd like try for 'performance' testings. On my side i use 720p which fits better my everyday usages.
   
   
 
  - CVT: EXTERNAL LINK   
  - UMC: EXTERNAL LINK 




Kyle Blake
(Needs Verification)
Posts 108/ 1
29 Jan 2020 19:46


I expected vampire rtg to manage 1080p50, at least in 256 colour. Makes me wonder why use an hdmi connector.


Ian Parsons

Posts 212
29 Jan 2020 22:27


Colour depth makes no difference, the same number of bits are sent on the r, g and b channels for each pixel. So only the pixel clock matters.


Nixus Minimax

Posts 415
30 Jan 2020 09:01


Ian Parsons wrote:

  Colour depth makes no difference, the same number of bits are sent on the r, g and b channels for each pixel. So only the pixel clock matters.
 

 
  Yes, exactly. 1920x1080x50 = ~104 MPixels / second. With 8 bit per colour component and 8bit/10bit error coding this is ~ 1 GBit/s per colour component that you'd have to squeeze through respective pins of the FPGA.
 
  It's just not possible to go that high on these FPGAs. It could work with special FPGA variants that have serdes pins for such speeds but then the Vampires would be quite a bit more expensive.
 


Kyle Blake
(Needs Verification)
Posts 108/ 1
30 Jan 2020 09:30


Or as is obvious use less bits per colour component for lower colour modes and give us a video adc like every other computer on earth?


Ronnie Beck
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 172
30 Jan 2020 14:59


Kyle Blake wrote:

  Or as is obvious use less bits per colour component for lower colour modes and give us a video adc like every other computer on earth?
 

 
  The output from the FPGA is already digital.  An ADC won't be useful here.  IIRC the minimum requirement for digital video and H-D-M-I is 8 bits per colour channel (RGB).  You don't get to choose.  This is to ensure backwards compatibility.  I am sure one of the hardware gurus here will correct me if I am wrong.


Kyle Blake
(Needs Verification)
Posts 108/ 1
30 Jan 2020 16:06


Ronnie Beck wrote:

 
Kyle Blake wrote:

    Or as is obvious use less bits per colour component for lower colour modes and give us a video adc like every other computer on earth?
   

   
    The output from the FPGA is already digital.  An ADC won't be useful here.  IIRC the minimum requirement for digital video and H-D-M-I is 8 bits per colour channel (RGB).  You don't get to choose.  This is to ensure backwards compatibility.  I am sure one of the hardware gurus here will correct me if I am wrong.
 

 
  Analog digital conversion is perfectly useful here, because it would convert output from FPGA into some nice analog format like VGA. In doing so you can have as many bits per channel as you like.
 
  hdmi is for watching tv where only 1080p exists, and is totally impractical and limiting for a computer of this type. I have no idea what kind of LCD panel would have a native resolution low enough to fit inside vampire's limits at 24bit colour while still having a hdmi port on it.
 
  in fact i've never seen a monitor with hdmi, but cheap 1080p panels all have vga on them. anything more than vga costs sometimes 50% more.
 
  I never thought of these things because when I saw vampire has h/d/m/i output, I assumed it would actually output the resolution hdmi displays use.
 
  it would be much more commonsense with vampire's video performance limits to have 1080p 256 colours on a vga output than look at some stretched 16 million colours image.


Nixus Minimax

Posts 415
30 Jan 2020 16:40


Kyle Blake wrote:
Analog digital conversion is perfectly useful here, because it would convert output from FPGA into some nice analog format like VGA. In doing so you can have as many bits per channel as you like.

There are some things here you don't seem to understand. The monitor does not know about palette settings. It ALWAYS receives RGB triplets for each pixel, no matter whether the digital signal source internally works in black-and-white, a two-colour mode, a 256 colours palette mode, 16 bit hicolor mode or 24/32 bit truecolour modes. It ALWAYS gets 8 bits R, 8 bits G, 8 bits B, each encoded into 10 bits for error coding, i.e. 30 bits per pixel. OK?

This means that, if you can't do 1080p@50Hz in 2 colours, you also cannot do 1080p@50Hz in 16M colours. And if you CAN do 1080p@50Hz in 2 colours, you also CAN do 1080p@50Hz in 16M colours. Got it? The monitor doesn't know your palette, it absolutely MUST get full information on each pixel.

hdmi is for watching tv where only 1080p exists, and is totally impractical and limiting for a computer of this type. I have no idea what kind of LCD panel would have a native resolution low enough to fit inside vampire's limits at 24bit colour while still having a hdmi port on it.

Lots of people have such LCD devices, including myself. They are usually called "TVs".

I never thought of these things because when I saw vampire has h/d/m/i output, I assumed it would actually output the resolution hdmi displays use.

It does. 640x400, 640x480 a.s.o. are valid video modes defined in the standards.
 



Krzysztof AT

Posts 32
30 Jan 2020 16:48



hdmi is for watching tv where only 1080p exists, and is totally impractical and limiting for a computer of this type. I have no idea what kind of LCD panel would have a native resolution low enough to fit inside vampire's limits at 24bit colour while still having a hdmi port on it.

I have NEC 1970NXp,and vampire perfectly works in it's native resolution.DIGITAL-VIDEO connected to dvi input with use of propper cable.



Roy Gillotti

Posts 392
30 Jan 2020 17:00


Kyle Blake wrote:

 
Ronnie Beck wrote:

   
Kyle Blake wrote:

      Or as is obvious use less bits per colour component for lower colour modes and give us a video adc like every other computer on earth?
     

     
      The output from the FPGA is already digital.  An ADC won't be useful here.  IIRC the minimum requirement for digital video and H-D-M-I is 8 bits per colour channel (RGB).  You don't get to choose.  This is to ensure backwards compatibility.  I am sure one of the hardware gurus here will correct me if I am wrong.
   

   
    Analog digital conversion is perfectly useful here, because it would convert output from FPGA into some nice analog format like VGA. In doing so you can have as many bits per channel as you like.
   
    hdmi is for watching tv where only 1080p exists, and is totally impractical and limiting for a computer of this type. I have no idea what kind of LCD panel would have a native resolution low enough to fit inside vampire's limits at 24bit colour while still having a hdmi port on it.
   
    in fact i've never seen a monitor with hdmi, but cheap 1080p panels all have vga on them. anything more than vga costs sometimes 50% more.
   
    I never thought of these things because when I saw vampire has h/d/m/i output, I assumed it would actually output the resolution hdmi displays use.
   
    it would be much more commonsense with vampire's video performance limits to have 1080p 256 colours on a vga output than look at some stretched 16 million colours image.
 

  While not 1080p, I can run 720p at 32bit colo(u)r perfectly fine on my V2 Vampire. I'm just using my older 720p TV for it. My other Vampire is using an older 4:3 LCD panel that is 15KHz tolerant for RGB output. 
 
  VGA would require extra DAC circuitry, were as H.D.M.I/DVI is easily driven directly from the FPGA, it's likely why that solution was chosen. Well that and VGA is getting more rare on TVs and monitors in the last few years.


Philippe Flype
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 280
30 Jan 2020 18:19


PixelClock / MHz frequency is not related to the depth. 8bits depth needs same frequency than 16/24/32bits. So, 'at least with 256 colors' wont help. What helps is more pixclock mhz. You have 75mhz max, it's much enough. Wanting 1080p on Amiga (68k) is really not useful. You will try it for the fun, be proud, telling your self omg, i get 1080p, it's so wow, and.... Some times later you will just go back to more reasonible resolutions. Workbench is not very usable with such. But it's only my opinion.


Sam Avenger

Posts 5
30 Jan 2020 19:23


From the DIGITAL-VIDEO Specifications 1.3a:

6.2.1 Format Support Requirements
Some of the following support requirements are in addition to those specified in CEA-861-D.
An DIGITAL-VIDEO Source shall support at least one of the following video format timings:
640x480p @ 59.94/60Hz
720x480p @ 59.94/60Hz
720x576p @ 50Hz
An DIGITAL-VIDEO Source that is capable of transmitting any of the following video format timings
using any other component analog or uncompressed digital video output, shall be capable of
transmitting that video format timing across the DIGITAL-VIDEO interface.
1280x720p @ 59.94/60Hz
1920x1080i @ 59.94/60Hz
720x480p @ 59.94/60Hz
1280x720p @ 50Hz
1920x1080i @ 50Hz
720x576p @ 50Hz
An DIGITAL-VIDEO Sink that accepts 60Hz video formats shall support the 640x480p @ 59.94/60Hz
and 720x480p @ 59.94/60Hz video format timings.
An DIGITAL-VIDEO Sink that accepts 50Hz video formats shall support the 640x480p @ 59.94/60Hz
and 720x576p @ 50Hz video format timings.
High-Definition Multimedia Interface Specification Version 1.3a
DIGITAL-VIDEO Licensing, LLC Page 85 of 156
An DIGITAL-VIDEO Sink that accepts 60Hz video formats, and that supports HDTV capability, shall
support 1280x720p @ 59.94/60Hz or 1920x1080i @ 59.94/60Hz video format timings.
An DIGITAL-VIDEO Sink that accepts 50Hz video formats, and that supports HDTV capability, shall
support 1280x720p @ 50Hz or 1920x1080i @ 50Hz video format timings.
An DIGITAL-VIDEO Sink that is capable of receiving any of the following video format timings using any
other component analog or uncompressed digital video input, shall be capable of receiving
that format across the DIGITAL-VIDEO interface.
1280x720p @ 59.94/60Hz
1920x1080i @ 59.94/60Hz
1280x720p @ 50Hz
1920x1080i @ 50Hz


Ronnie Beck
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 172
30 Jan 2020 19:35


Kyle Blake wrote:

 
Ronnie Beck wrote:

  An ADC won't be useful here
 

  Analog digital conversion is perfectly useful here, because it would convert output from FPGA into some nice analog format like VGA.
 

  That would be digital to analog conversion.  A DAC.  You have it arse-about.  You are free to downgrade your visual experience at your own expense.  Ebay has lots of DIGITAL-VIDEO->VGA converters.  Analog away to your heart's content.


Markus B

Posts 152
30 Jan 2020 20:33


And that's why the product is not fully "DIGITAL-VIDEO" compliant and not advertised as such.

It's a compromise as the FPGA is not able to run the needed pixelclock.


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 4703
31 Jan 2020 07:54


Sam Avenger wrote:

      An DIGITAL-VIDEO Source that is capable of transmitting any of the following video format timings
      using any other component analog or uncompressed digital video output, shall be capable of
      transmitting that video format timing across the DIGITAL-VIDEO interface.
      1280x720p @ 59.94/60Hz
      1920x1080i @ 59.94/60Hz
      720x480p @ 59.94/60Hz
      1280x720p @ 50Hz
      1920x1080i @ 50Hz
      720x576p @ 50Hz
   

 
Guys, I think you misunderstand Sam.
   
The request was for 1920x1080p.
As Sam correctly stated this mode is NOT in the required list for H-D-M-I.
This means a device is NOT required to support this.

The VAMP supports the 720p and even also support 1080p@24/30 which are optional.
 


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 1673
31 Jan 2020 15:46


I am NOT hi res guy, and NOT a HD fan, lived with VHS and live with DVD quality.

I am more interested in how to convert videos to Riva played format from DivX, mkv and similar modern standards (FFMpeg again?)
as well as of some 800x or 900x resolution in 60Hz+ (72Hz prefferably) as I have eyesight problems and refresh rate does matter.

What good is 1080p world to ye, in 50Hz. That goes to cheap TV.


posts 39page  1 2