Overview Features Instructions Performance Forum Downloads Products OrderV4 Reseller Contact

Welcome to the Apollo Forum

This forum is for people interested in the APOLLO CPU.
Please read the forum usage manual.
VISIT APOLLO IRC CHANNEL



All TopicsNewsPerformanceGamesDemosApolloVampireAROSWorkbenchATARIReleases
Documentation about the Vampire hardware

Vampire V4 and Atari ST... Baby Steps!page  1 2 3 4 

Tim Waite

Posts 18
21 Nov 2018 21:42


As nice as the Falcon is, the big issue is trying to buy one.  If you find it, it is very expensive.  A1200 is far more available and common.  Its seems that only around 25k Atari falcons were sold.


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 1572
22 Nov 2018 03:26


Tim Waite wrote:

As nice as the Falcon is, the big issue is trying to buy one.  If you find it, it is very expensive.  A1200 is far more available and common.  Its seems that only around 25k Atari falcons were sold.

True also, it was end-of-Atari line and already on heavy decline. Just like it happened with e.g. CBM Amiga 4000T or Escom one. That is as hard to find as DraCo.

Another reason why Vamps eventual ability to emulate Falcon (or Hatari AMMX port) would be quite niche and driving Atari fans to it. They couldn't easily get it even then, and even harder after Atari exited hardware market.


Michael Borrmann

Posts 113
22 Nov 2018 06:06


Nothing but respect for the Atari STs, even though I am an Amiga dude.

Would love to see vampirized STs happening...


OneSTone O2o

Posts 159
22 Nov 2018 06:50


Lord Aga wrote:

Matthew Burroughs wrote:

  Hate to admit it, but a stock Falcon beats a Stock 1200.
 

 
  Do you mean a stock Falcon beats a stock A1200 in a 'who has a more primitive and crappier OS'?
  I agree. Then again, I wouldn't want to win that competition.
 
  Also do you mean that a 1MB RAM stock Falcon can do more than a 2MB RAM stock A1200? I don't think so.
 
  To be fair, I also thought that the mythical Falcon was a formidable machine until I saw one in real life. OS is a disaster, and everything feels so clunky and primitive compared to Amiga. It shines when you (manage to) start one of a very few games specially made for Falcon, but that doesn't improve the overall impression much. It's like a powerful-looking empty husk that you can occasionally necromance into doing something interesting.

1. Every Falcon was shipped with MultiTOS diskettes. You only had to install it. MultiTOS is based on MiNT which is opensource now, and heavily enhanced. MiNT is today unix/linux alike (posix, gnu tools, xwindow, tcp/uip, loadable filesystems, ...) with high TOS compatibility

2. Falcon was shpped with 4 or 14 MB RAM.

3. stock Falcon can play MP3 up to 128 kBit (through DSP) smooth, even Amiga 4000 with 040/060 can't. Falcon can access 1.44 MB diskettes, even stock Amiga 1200/4000 can't. Videl graphics is much more flexible than AGA. more colors and resolutions. Falcon DSP sound is incredible compared to Paula in A1200/4000, Paula has not improved since A1000.

You really need to see a Falcon which is in hand of somewone who knows what to do with it. There are some phantastic apps, games and demos for it you would never see on Amiga in that quality. Take Aniplayer, Racer 2 and Sonoluminiscence as examples.


Nixus Minimax

Posts 383
22 Nov 2018 07:59


oneSTone o2o wrote:
Falcon can access 1.44 MB diskettes, even stock Amiga 1200/4000 can't.

The A4000 came with an HD floppy disk drive.



OneSTone O2o

Posts 159
22 Nov 2018 15:13


Nixus Minimax wrote:

oneSTone o2o wrote:
Falcon can access 1.44 MB diskettes, even stock Amiga 1200/4000 can't.

 
  The A4000 came with an HD floppy disk drive.
 

At half speed as it was impossible to get Paula faster for Decode/Encode MFM and GCR.


Andrew Miller

Posts 207
22 Nov 2018 17:34


A quick check says that you can decode MFM and GCR, and that was from 1996.
EXTERNAL LINK


Nixus Minimax

Posts 383
23 Nov 2018 08:06


oneSTone o2o wrote:

Nixus Minimax wrote:

 
oneSTone o2o wrote:
Falcon can access 1.44 MB diskettes, even stock Amiga 1200/4000 can't.

 
  The A4000 came with an HD floppy disk drive.
 
 

 
  At half speed as it was impossible to get Paula faster for Decode/Encode MFM and GCR.

I was merely correcting your "A4000 cannot access HD floppies" statement which was wrong. And, as far as I know, it is not a speed limitation of Paula's decoding but rather the fixed number of DMA cycles assigned to floppy disk drive access. (Btw, my A1200 also has an HD floppy disk drive as that was very important for me to get downloads from university back onto my harddisk on less floppies; an HD FDD is just an upgrade and not really a limitation).



Lord Aga
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 95
23 Nov 2018 12:22


Vojin Vidanovic wrote:

    My own Eastern Europe "mid end" A1200 with IDE splitter and 3.5 500MB HDD and CD ROM ugly bulking out of case with external PSU, 020/28Mhz FPU 4MB FAST, KS 3.1 ROM and OS 3.5 could not do as much as 1-4MB Falcon with hard drive in terms of apps and usability.

Your Amiga config was great for that time. I had only 4MB FAST RAM and a 120MB HDD. Granted, both of us were unable to play 3D FPSs at a brilliant level, but for overall productivity those were cool little machines.

What was/is your Atari config?


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 1572
23 Nov 2018 12:32


Lord Aga wrote:

  Your Amiga config was great for that time. I
    What was/is your Atari config?
   

Mine was labor of love and upgrade from stock A1200 smuggled from Munich (smuggled because there were no legal sales, there was UN embargo and local smugglers would charge it 1600 DEM, about x2).

You should see DJ Nicks A1200PPC Tower. You can, if you grab his mod production of time! EXTERNAL LINK
DJ Nicks labor of professionalism (gfx and music)
Machine Started in 1990: Amiga500
Machine Ended in 2003: Amiga 1200 Big Tower PPC 603e 166mhz 060/50 160mb RAM, Vision...

And mine? 

    a little gem has served me until A1200 died. And had far better time with it then with the "monolith" a1-x1000 sitting next to me now and mostly collecting dust. CD-ROM was actually a bigest thumb up enabling CD32 library, few Amiga multimedia editions and few nice AmigaCD games. AS well as magic of CD backup! As all my 60 floppies were easily installed on my 80MB first 2.5"Amiga HDD, so all my files from HDD+floppy DMS copies went on a single CD. Works even today.
    And ah, a modem.Serial port one, max speed >:-) For BBBs and ... Voyager browser!
    Never had an Atari, had ST friends and had none of the "hate of the time" as in East Europe it was mostly financial choice if one would even remain late Spectrum/CBM user or upgrade to Amiga/Atari (never IBM and Mac wasnt here). Seen a TT and read much about Falcon, and yes, it was a next logical step towards m68k home computer becoming better - addition of DSP,MIDI,16-bit sound as standard and far better gfx abilities. A missed opportunity of A3000+ AGA DSP.
   
    Never understood why CBM never advanced Paula. If I heard best of it (14-bit AHI on AGA) it simpy could not reach Hi-Fi standards even of that great age of Sony/Samsung/Aiwa/Technics real sound boxes and lines.
   
    As user only, I always loved the sound and graphics equally. And nice software titles and community, so I have big love for QL, Atari, Classic Mac users. Seen nice advancements amongst all of them, in spite of death or abandonment by companies. In the end Motorola has sunk m68k to PPC.


Lord Aga
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 95
23 Nov 2018 12:36


oneSTone o2o wrote:

  You really need to see a Falcon which is in hand of somewone who knows what to do with it. There are some phantastic apps, games and demos for it you would never see on Amiga in that quality. Take Aniplayer, Racer 2 and Sonoluminiscence as examples.
 

 
  Basically you said the same thing as I did, but in a different tone.
  I did see a Falcon in action in real life, and it only worsened my opinion. I had it in high regard before, now it's just OK. Much more impressive on paper than in reality. Coming from seamless OS-Progs-Utils-Games integration on the Amiga, everything seemed so clunky.
 
  Same question for you. What were/are your Falcon/Amiga configs?
 
  As I already said, when it shines it's really impressive. With arcade-quality games. But software pieces written for the Falcon are few and far between. So its potential is far greater than reality. Hopefully the Vampire can spread those advanced cores a little bit and widen the base of users so we can have more good software.
 
  I am not an Atari hater. Not at all. Atari is on my 'cute' list, and I was actually recently looking to buy an ST(E), but gave up because it was too much of a hassle to set up a hard drive. Maybe the Vampire will bring me closer to an Atari setup :)


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 1572
23 Nov 2018 13:08


Lord Aga wrote:

    Maybe the Vampire will bring me closer to an Atari setup :)
   

   
    It will, since it starts where only advanced Atari users could go :-)
   
    Atari MiNT XaAES Teradesk
    EXTERNAL LINK   
    Feels so 90s
 
  As well as EmuTOS as its basis
  EXTERNAL LINK 
  You tube even has dark universe version "what if Amiga never existed?" with CommodoreST playing Amiga role >:-)Even Commodore Jaguar and Commodore Falcon.
  EXTERNAL LINK   


OneSTone O2o

Posts 159
24 Nov 2018 13:53


Lord Aga wrote:

    Same question for you. What were/are your Falcon/Amiga configs?
 

 
  I have 2 Falcons, one is 14 MB ST-RAM, FPU, original CPU and a Screenblaster, and the other one is 14 MB ST-RAM, FPU, original CPU, Screenblaster, switchable to CT60e turbo card, 68060 95 Mhz 512 MB TT-RAM, still waiting for a SuperVidel card. Both have 2 CF-Card slots, one of the slots is populated with 32 GB CF, the other is for data transfer with 1-2 GB CF towards the PC, and I can use Hydra network card for ROM port with them. The fast one makes a lot of fun running MiNT.
 
  I have an A1200, with a bit more RAM in the trapdoor, waiting for a Vampire. I don't have a lot of experience with it. A friend has installed it for me.


M Rickan

Posts 172
24 Nov 2018 18:35


It's interesting that discussions about the Amiga and Atari computers inevitably return to comparisons.

In the end, the main point is that the Vampire may help lead to a resurgence of both platforms.

More Vampire devices means more development.

More is better.


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 1572
24 Nov 2018 22:10


m rickan wrote:

  In the end, the main point is that the Vampire may help lead to a resurgence of both platforms.

Its a bit more then just "more". Attracting Atari users may bring some m68k talents back or even resurrect e.g. MINT app development. Since we can access MINT/xAES apps already, its good for every Vamp user.




Ingo Uhlemann

Posts 27
27 Nov 2018 11:26


Hello all together.

What all of you forget is that there is a lot of development in Progress but missing a fast CPU is stopping this.. There is for example MyAES witj MDesk what is a nice desktop and also Optimizable. Then there is Thing Desktop what is also Optimazable with new features and its also Open Source. Only what is missing is a Fast CPU for the ST´s. Yes of course we could rebuild the PAK3/-030 but that solves not the problem of missing CPU´s on the marked and more then 54Mhz 68030 is not Possible with this. Full 68060 is very hard to get and also very expensive!

And one think what most of you all forget is !! When the Core runs on an ST then it runs on all 68000 Maschines because the ST uses the Full 68000 Bus protokoll!




Greg Thomas

Posts 24
04 Dec 2018 16:22


So what would it take to run Atari and Amiga software side by side?

I see EmuTOS allows running Atari software as a one at a time in a virtual Unikernel type environment. On Amiga there is an application communication language called AREXX (from IBM REXX) which allows joinging programs together to build on each other. Is there anything similar on Atari?

If yes then I wonder if the Amiga and Atari software could be made talk to each other. And if not then Atari software may as well sit on top of Amiga hardware. But it looks like Atari has some superior items. At the very least the 56000 DSP in the Falcon.

The Amiga had the Atari beat in most areas of hardware. But there were some thing which the Atari did better. Though I don't know what they actually are... perhaps you can explain to me :-)

Perhaps it'd be nice if the Amiga Paula could be merged into a 56K DSP...

Is there any other hardware the Atari has which the Amiga side would need to be enhanced to match?

It looks like there are various file system drivers Amiga would benefit from loading into ROM, and the ability to change keyboard map layout is also a great idea.

Imagine if the two systems were merged so the strengths of each are combined. This computer would be more resilient than either one alone.


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 1572
05 Dec 2018 13:10


Greg Thomas wrote:

So what would it take to run Atari and Amiga software side by side?

An ST/STE emulator exist, porting Hatari would bring Falcon software (and that is real advanced area to Amiga). Plus some DTP.

Greg Thomas wrote:

I see EmuTOS allows running Atari software

Sadly, its "that other boot" that brings Atari mode, not side-by-side solution. Its rudimentary in terms our FPGA core supports basic Atari ST/STE gfx modes but not its sound chips, blitters, Videl graphics. V4 might, or might not go that route.

It seems V2 users will be given a side-by-side solution, but would love to see such "native" solution for Mac68k too. Hope some of v4 LE space could go there.

Greg Thomas wrote:

Imagine if the two systems were merged so the strengths of each are combined. This computer would be more resilient than either one alone.

Exactly, plus would attract more retro fans. But its hard to build all in one solution, even if core reflashes a la "those other FPGA sys" are offered, would be most welcome.

Also, possibility that old Ataris and Macs could be revamped is nice, but I am not sure about market beside "review and collectable models". AtariSTs and Mac users went the Apple/Intel route.



Greg Thomas

Posts 24
07 Dec 2018 07:03


The Amiga is 'magical'. Its efficient and makes you excited to tinker.
  Macintosh has a 'magical' aesthetic to user interface, particularly for artsy types. But no tinkering is to be encouraged. The cult of Mac is the biggest in the world. Though only the 68k crowd are of interest to us.
 
  What is the 'magic' of the Atari ST? Sounds like the Falcon has it. Otherwise people would not be holding on as they are to their beloved old gear and investing all this emotion to maintain it through modest upgrades to try and keep it useful.
 
  From what I can tell, Atari would benefit greatly from an OS upgrade. And its GUI is best not even speaking about if we want to be polite.
 
  Atari and Mac68k are fundamentally simple 68k 'CPU-does-all' computers. In both cases their beauty is in their software and users.

Atari Falcon is a bit more special with its 56001 DSP on board.
 
  Despite the glorious aesthetic, Apple system 7 only has cooperative multitasking.
  Atari has a POSIX compliant memory-protected preemptive-multi-tasking in the form of SpareMINT. So the advantage here is porting other POSIX software over with ease.

 
  Amiga HARDWARE is the odd one which has custom chips which operate in parallel. It has an OS with (non memory protected) preemptive multitasking which is designed to delegate as much away from the CPU to be performed in parallel as possible. Being so ahead of its time, the OS (Workbench) does not have networking built in. Despite its excellent implementation, it could still do with an overhaul in consistency.
 
Would the 'magic' or 'spirit' of the Atari be lost if its Videl graphics chip were replaced with another graphics engine (eg new Amiga graphics chip)?


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 1572
07 Dec 2018 07:45


Greg Thomas wrote:

    Would the 'magic' or 'spirit' of the Atari be lost if its Videl graphics chip were replaced with another graphics engine (eg new Amiga graphics chip)?
 

 
  VIDEL can use Blitter, SuperVIDEL is more RTG like. So for full old ST/STE compatibility Atari blitter would need to be supported (not done now, we just use CPU and EmuTOS and MINT - all NOT using Blitter. SAGA plays basic Atari models playing as abait slow and unoptimized VIDEL. That is what I can figure out from bench screen of MINT on Vamp.
 
  Love the nice round up, but Vamp offers "common ground" with fastest and compatibile m68k CPU. V4+ FPGAs would need "just" to implement more of HW compatibility to reach native Falcon or Macintosh (that we use via half native, half emulated Fusion etc.)
 
  What do you "miss" is that "magic" is not only in hardware and OS, but in apps and games. What attracted me to Amiga was NOT the cute look or the nice OS (compared to DOS and Win 3.x) but it was the productivity apps and games. Same does to a level work with Atari and Mac and that is our gain (many apps and games on Vamp) beside attracting more crowd. Vamp has potential to be non-emulated "super 68k" for all retro camps, not just Amiga revival.

In Atari case - if we could come up with cheap MIDI for standalone/classics, it could mean acess to e.g. Cubase

EXTERNAL LINK 
 
  Note that Vamp is able to emulate ST/STE at speed cost (quite accurate emulation but 00 + chipset style)
 
  Vamp emulating ST/STE using STON Amiga
  EXTERNAL LINK   
  As opossed to native EmuTOS + MINT natively
  EXTERNAL LINK   
  MINT needs a more optimized drivers (kind of like with AROS m68k)
  but works nicely out of box. Also only few Atari ST/STE resolutions are currently built in Vamp, not the TT/Falcon higher res/more colour modes.
 
  Falcon Videl, is the "upgrade" similar to AGA on Amiga. Even more, Videl is de facto Falcon standard and highest gfx modes Atari has achieved without expansion boards.
 
  Note that "Super VIDEL" similar to RTG was developed too.
  EXTERNAL LINK   
  Since it uses FPGA tech, maybe (just maybe) Vampire team could work on to integrate it to V4+ Vamps. That would eliminate Falcon compatibility in Gfx area, not in sound one. Sadly, SuperVIDEL was developed for other kind of "FPGA" Xilinx Spartan-3 2000 FPGA in a FG456 package.

posts 76page  1 2 3 4