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Vampire V4 and Atari ST... Baby Steps!page  1 2 3 4 

Ian Parsons

Posts 174
24 Oct 2018 23:45


I'm not sure this brings an ASIC much closer. Unless the Amiga SoC core and Atari SoC core are combined onto a single chip that can be configured to be one or the other you would need two ASICs or an Apollo Core ASIC with FPGA chipset or an accelerator with Apollo/(Amiga) ASIC SoC for classic Ataris. But I don't think Accelerators with an ASIC make much sense as Ataris don't seem to have much of an acceleration culture AFAIK, they had soldered CPUs with no CPU expansion bus (like the Amiga 600).
 
Having an Atari core does have other advantages like expanding 080 features (AMMX etc) beyond the Amiga, expanding the software base to test compatibility of the Apollo core, boosting interest in 680x0 coding and maybe other benefits in developing and manufacturing Vampire products like the standalone.


OneSTone O2o

Posts 158
25 Oct 2018 06:41


Andrew Miller wrote:

Heh, the best Mac is an Amiga, now the best Atari can be an Amiga too :)

This thread is not about running Atari software and environement on Amiga, but running Atari software and environement on heavily accelerated Atari hardware, maybe as fast (and compatible!) as never* before.

(*except of running that stuff in hatari/aranym emulators on very fast Core-i or Ryzen processor, this might stay still much faster).


OneSTone O2o

Posts 158
25 Oct 2018 06:44


Ian Parsons wrote:

  But I don't think Accelerators with an ASIC make much sense as Ataris don't seem to have much of an acceleration culture AFAIK, they had soldered CPUs with no CPU expansion bus (like the Amiga 600).

This is definitvely not true... For example Mega ST has Mega-Bus which is having all the signals of the 68000 bus. There were a lot of accelerator boards also for CPU socket, ATARI users are very skilled in desoldering CPU, or they have good service in community for that.


Matthew Burroughs

Posts 59
26 Oct 2018 19:08


sean sk wrote:

Niclas A wrote:

  EXTERNAL LINK 

 
  Oooh I REALLY like that!

ME TOO!!!!


Matthew Burroughs

Posts 59
26 Oct 2018 19:11


Or they could go out and buy a Falcon.

Hate to admit it, but a stock Falcon beats a Stock 1200.

Anyway, Vampire for the Atari family, why not?

(Maybe Evan for Very Classic Macs but i know that's been debated to death)


Eric Gus

Posts 289
27 Oct 2018 07:12


Matthew Burroughs wrote:

  (Maybe Evan for Very Classic Macs but i know that's been debated to death)

That would be quite interesting to drop one of those in my MacSE .. ! more so with the DIGITAL-VIDEO output ..



Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 860
27 Oct 2018 08:30


Matthew Burroughs wrote:

  That would be quite interesting to drop one of those in my MacSE .. ! more so with the DIGITAL-VIDEO output ..
 

 
  Surely "Amiga and Atari" for Mac via Vamp sounds dandy IF there are any classics used today - Mac boys do move with company new models.
 
  So, I find "Mac on Vampire" - as via Fusion/Shapeshifter (and would love to see it even more done in h/w-FPGA). It brings best goodie pack of software and games in 68k world until we have new Vamp releases.

Atari brings nice productivity too, and IF we make it up to the Falcon and find a way to bring MIDI on a Vamp, oh boy Cubase and NEW FALCON is here!
 


OneSTone O2o

Posts 158
27 Oct 2018 09:23


New Falcon sounds interesting. Needs complete (Super-)Videl emulation, PMMU, STE-DMA-Sound, MC56K1-DSP with it's audio-interface, etc. Would need some skilled Atari guys to do so, still a long way to go, even if the V4 would alrady operate in a 1040 board as the base (Midi, etc.)


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 860
27 Oct 2018 09:46


oneSTone o2o wrote:

      New Falcon sounds interesting. Needs complete (Super-)Videl emulation, PMMU, STE-DMA-Sound, MC56K1-DSP with it's audio-interface, etc. Would need some skilled Atari guys to do so, still a long way to go, even if the V4 would alrady operate in a 1040 board as the base (Midi, etc.)
     

     
      Yup, best leave it for "V6 Vamps" :-)We beat bad boys Falcon 040 with home-brew Falcon 080 :-)
     
      For "Those days" an Atari TT on 080 would be dandy, with Calmus, Papyrus, 1ST Word Plus, Neon, STOS Adventure Creator, Photoline, Logic Audio (Emagic), Cyber Paint, Superbase Personal,  DCopy, Paula, Hisoft Basic, 3D Construction Kit,  ST Writer, VIP Professional,  Architectural Design Disk, Audio Sculpture, Equinox Soundtracker Replayer, Cubase Audio, CAD-3D, Zero-X, Atomix, Midi-Maze (1987), Gauntlet II (1989)Phantasie II (1986) and Atari TT hi res modes and few usefull apps.

How big would be productivity pack like this for EmuTOS partition of Coffin + some space for exammples and user documents?
     
      Yes, 640×480 (16 colors), palette of 4096 colors, Duochrome: 640×200 (4 colors) and even Monochrome: 1280×960 mono TT high with ECL 19 in (483 mm) TTM195 monitor
     
      Like when a Vamp is not registered, but nice productivity and speed :-)
 
  At the same time, EVERY ST/STE could be upgraded to TT this way + Amiga and Mac "modes".


Simo Koivukoski
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 375
28 Oct 2018 09:34


<removed> ...wrong thread


OneSTone O2o

Posts 158
28 Oct 2018 10:37


Vojin, you are well informed, really! But a Falcon with 040 is a bit more rare than Falcon with ct60/060, and some of these, lime mine, run at least with 95 Mhz, this is already hard to beat. 1987 version of MidieMaze won't run clean on such fast machine, timing too hard coded for 8/16 Mhz, you will need Midimaze II Falcon/TT patched version. Falcon 060 with SuperVidel ist the thing which has to be beaten, in case of speed (but not "compatibility") even Firebee.

Upgrading every 530/1040 to that level sounds great.


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 860
28 Oct 2018 21:51


oneSTone o2o wrote:

          Vojin, you are well informed, really!
         

         
          Well, not really. Loved the idea of "computer for masses" - not being Spectrum 48k, but here in ex-YU, Amiga was absolute winner. Had a few Atari 1040ST/STE owners who had nice setups, Atomix etc. but since WB 3.0 GEM simply looked to ... Windows 2.0 like. Kind of. Sadly, we never really experienced TT and Falcon, except via news in "World of computers" (Svet kompjutera).
         
          Primary benefit in compiling "what was done right on Atari side" is hommage for joystick ports, default MIDI, first games and Civ games publishing and community persistence - but also what Vamp userbase could get from "Atari side" - a software never seen before on "Amiga".
         
         
oneSTone o2o wrote:

          But a Falcon with 040 is a bit more rare than Falcon with ct60/060, and some of these, lime mine, run at least with 95 Mhz, this is already hard to beat.
         

         
          I was more referring of what Falcon was ought to be.040 base machine would be far more aggressive approach beating A4000 outright, but it never happened. Like TT was crippled a bit. "Too early, one way" Jaguar approach simply has beaten Atari.
         
          Where the rest of story goes, is simply same labor of love as of Amiga community (or Sinclair QL community, my first 68k love and possible ZX Spectrum upgrade :-)
               
         
oneSTone o2o wrote:

          1987 version of MidieMaze won't run clean on such fast machine, timing too hard coded for 8/16 Mhz, you will need Midimaze II Falcon/TT patched version. Falcon 060 with SuperVidel ist the thing which has to be beaten, in case of speed (but not "compatibility") even Firebee.
         

         
          I do understand QL and Atari has came a long way to upgrade OS and expansions to go all the way to 060, and Atari even beyond with FPGA/ColdFire hybrid - where no 68k-igan has gone before!
         
          SuperVidel is what we understand as CGX/RTG (kind of) and I hope we can somewhat abuse SAGA RTG - I see some Videl results in current EmuTOS tests, or am I wrong? Optimized GEM/TOS/MiNt driver would do the magic?.
         
         
oneSTone o2o wrote:

          Upgrading every 530/1040 to that level sounds great.
         

         
          To my understanding,even we never get to emulate Falcon hardware (or we port Hatari Falcon mode to 080 MMX :-) - getting 080+ fast Videl and access to Amiga/MacOS software library would be a massive benefit to any remaining Atari ST/STE out there!
       
        Note that Vampire Standalone also becomes "new Amiga Classic" as well as "new Atari Classic" and a bit of "new Mac Classic". Well, maybe even a new QL - in my dreams - acessing even weireder m68k library of a bit of 8-bit touch with m68k power >:-)

I want to say, m68k history is long, and Vamp being m68k and FPGA offers a lot of nice retro possibilities!

Advanced QL info

- first m68k on sale 1984,
- discontinued 1986
- sold 150 000 units

Highlits:

  QL Bouncing Da Ball!
  EXTERNAL LINK 

Minerva as OS evolution
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minerva_(QDOS_reimplementation)

060 QL as h/w strongpoint
EXTERNAL LINK  --------------------------------------------

      Surely Vamp can already be a ql via emulation, as well as Atari can do it      http://www.dilwyn.me.uk/emu/index.html#QDOS_Classic_for_Amiga


Pedro Cotter
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 134
19 Nov 2018 19:38


Atari 520ST+ with connected Vampire V4

EXTERNAL LINK


OneSTone O2o

Posts 158
19 Nov 2018 21:02


Looks like V4 has been designed specially for 520ST... Any news about getting V4 to properly work in ST? Any progress since last video?


Andrew Miller

Posts 177
20 Nov 2018 02:40


oneSTone o2o wrote:

Looks like V4 has been designed specially for 520ST... Any news about getting V4 to properly work in ST? Any progress since last video?

Well apart from you have to remove the floppy connector for it to fit, and the ports are not accessible. I'm guessing it doesn't even boot, it would probably require a specific core.
But you never know, maybe the fact it ties into the 68000 socket and already has that interface working on the A500.


Andrew Miller

Posts 177
21 Nov 2018 05:51


The video has been taken down :(, but I did get a reply to my comment asking if it worked. Looks like it is being worked on, but they are having issues at the moment with getting bus errors.
Pretty sure this is experimental and probably isnt something we were supposed to know about, but hey its good news either way.
Just shows potential customers that the apollo team can drop the apollo core into existing 68K designs.


Lord Aga
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 70
21 Nov 2018 13:28


Matthew Burroughs wrote:

  Hate to admit it, but a stock Falcon beats a Stock 1200.
 

 
  Do you mean a stock Falcon beats a stock A1200 in a 'who has a more primitive and crappier OS'?
  I agree. Then again, I wouldn't want to win that competition.
 
  Also do you mean that a 1MB RAM stock Falcon can do more than a 2MB RAM stock A1200? I don't think so.
 
  To be fair, I also thought that the mythical Falcon was a formidable machine until I saw one in real life. OS is a disaster, and everything feels so clunky and primitive compared to Amiga. It shines when you (manage to) start one of a very few games specially made for Falcon, but that doesn't improve the overall impression much. It's like a powerful-looking empty husk that you can occasionally necromance into doing something interesting.


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 860
21 Nov 2018 14:38


Lord Aga wrote:

    Also do you mean that a 1MB RAM stock Falcon can do more than a 2MB RAM stock A1200? I don't think so.
 

 
  Standard Falcon was 4MB. 1MB existed, but that was "low end".
 
  Well, yes, that is why many TOS advancements were made. And plain OS 3.1 is crappy too >:-)
 
  But 030, fast RAM, DSP ... was something A1200 could only dream on.
 
  But yes, one is on paper, and one is very few apps, games and demos were made to use Falcon fully. But those are really impressive.
 
  Such as abeit slow, but Quake2 engine
  EXTERNAL LINK 
Apps compatibility list
EXTERNAL LINK 
Falcon only demo list
EXTERNAL LINK 
Games and compatibility list
EXTERNAL LINK 
And Mythical Falcon 040 page
EXTERNAL LINK


Lord Aga
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 70
21 Nov 2018 15:25


Why would you take the 4MB version as 'stock' ?
For me, 'stock' is the bare bones, the lowest you can go (except opening the machine and taking out a floppy drive or something... :) )

Yes, there were options to buy a 4MB (or more) version, but there were also options to buy a HD Amiga. Or a FAST RAM enhanced Amiga. Then you have the capabilities of a hard drive Amiga vs a floppy Falcon. Or any other crazy combination. That's why you go for the lowest possible config. And this is all without factoring in the prices. Things go even worse for the Falcon then.

WB 3.1. was and is still pretty capable and neat to use. Even on a stock machine it can look pretty nice, and serve its purpose. And while I have seen gorgeous WBs even on 2MB machines, I have never seen a beautiful Atari OS screen. Schrecklich und fast primitiv.


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 860
21 Nov 2018 15:52


Lord Aga wrote:

    WB 3.1. was and is still pretty capable and neat to use. Even on a stock machine it can look pretty nice, and serve its purpose. And while I have seen gorgeous WBs even on 2MB machines, I have never seen a beautiful Atari OS screen. Schrecklich und fast primitiv.
   

   
    Well, yes, TOS really looked like continuation of Ser Clive Sinclairs style and could not compete to WB or MacOS in many areas. Gladly, community took it forward and what Vamp uses with Appollo Core and ST mode is far more modern.
   
    They offered 1,4,16MB and HD versions as standard, while CBM offered just barebone and barebone HD. I have never seen CBM 030+ fitted A1200 in a pack. Surely, we had great hardware developers so CBM was easy on that, but so much of standards.
   
    My own Eastern Europe "mid end" A1200 with IDE splitter and 3.5 500MB HDD and CD ROM ugly bulking out of case with external PSU, 020/28Mhz FPU 4MB FAST, KS 3.1 ROM and OS 3.5 could not do as much as 1-4MB Falcon with hard drive in terms of apps and usability.
   
    So, I believe I am fair. Not an Atari fanboy, but respect paid where respect is earned.
   
    And I loved some of the ST/TT/Falcon design lines, slim to Amiga ones! Mouse looks great and felt a way better then tank mouse!
 
  ST mouse
  EXTERNAL LINK   
  Would use it on a Vamp. Like I do like IBM mechanical keyboards ;-)
 
  The only bad side of Falcon was that Atari already switched to Jag so it was deadborn, that 040 version wasnt pushed also and that even 030 performance was a bit crippled (bus speed, CPU clock) so it does not instantly crash big high end TT. So its is "kind of high end ST/STE", not a big pro TT style desktop Atari.
 
  As with Amiga, Atari home computers could just be much more, but ...

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