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Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 4797
02 Sep 2017 14:57


Gentlemen, please don't misuse this forum for bashing.




Steve Ferrell

Posts 393
02 Sep 2017 17:35


Casper Steuperaert wrote:

 
Steve Ferrell wrote:

    I agree with you 100%.  Now if you had posted this same message over at A.org, you would have first been flamed and then gotten yourself banned for 5 months.....I should know, because I was banned for 5 months for stating similar thoughts, which according to the moderator who banned me was considered trolling.    Since A-EON bought the A.org web site the censorship there has become ridiculous.  Only fan-boy and cheerleader posts allowed there.  Even valid criticism of OS4 or the hardware that runs it gets you banned.  I can't imagine Hyperion and A-EON being in business much longer if they continue clinging to a dead OS and pushing hardware that performs on par with systems from 2003 at outlandish prices.....not to mention drowning out any voices of those who want a better product. 
 

  That's not the entire story is it Steve? There is a difference between voicing legitimate gripes with OS4 and actively gunning down everything that has anything to do with it or with PPC. Hijacking threads and insulting people is something you get legitimately banned for, not censored. It's sad that there has to be such animosity while many people would enjoy all aspects of Amiga (be it Morph OS, AROS, AOS4, PPC, M68K or x86).
 

 
You must have me confused with someone else.  I don't actively "gun down" or hijack threads or insult people.  Here's exactly what I said that got me banned for 5 months at A.org:
I honestly don't understand why OS4 users continue to cling to an OS that has rough feature parity with Windows 98 and continue to pay 2020 prices for hardware that performs like it's 2003.

 
Not only was I banned for 5 months but the post was also removed. 
 
Where did I attack or insult anyone by making that statement?  If you feel threatened or attacked by it then you should reexamine your reasons for feeling so.
 
I'm not the only one to notice the heavy censorship there.  Matt Hey has also mentioned A,org's heavy handed use of it as well over at EAB EXTERNAL LINK 
Being banned and censored multiple times over on AmigaOS 4 fanboy forums (first time ever banned for me) for stating opinions they didn't like is just a perspective? I'm not the only one banned by the fanboy zealots either. I'm not saying all AmigaOS 4 users are fanboy zealots but they have taken control on several other Amiga sites which used to be general Amiga sites.

 


M Rickan

Posts 174
02 Sep 2017 18:39


Mr Niding wrote:

As ssolie said in a AmiWest speech, he could make life easier by skipping many steps they are currently taking, breaking xyz compability. But where is the fun in that? He uses AOS for fun, as a distraction from his dayjob etc.

That type of positioning is fine when you're developing an inconsequential product. But, if you control the legacy and current versions of the operating system and at once both take a lackadaisical attitude about development and prioritize legally defending its propriety I have a problem.

Regardless of which Amiga platform you favour, modern hardware options are finally appearing but the OS is languishing.

The "it's just a hobby, be happy that it's not dead" argument is a pathetic excuse for inactivity. It's not a technical problem or a resource problem or a money problem - it's obvious that the wrong people are in control.



Mr Niding

Posts 446
02 Sep 2017 18:44


@M Rickan

Im glad you are stepping up then.


Steve Ferrell

Posts 393
02 Sep 2017 19:25


m rickan wrote:

Mr Niding wrote:

  As ssolie said in a AmiWest speech, he could make life easier by skipping many steps they are currently taking, breaking xyz compability. But where is the fun in that? He uses AOS for fun, as a distraction from his dayjob etc.
 

 
  That type of positioning is fine when you're developing an inconsequential product. But, if you control the legacy and current versions of the operating system and at once both take a lackadaisical attitude about development and prioritize legally defending its propriety I have a problem.
 
  Regardless of which Amiga platform you favour, modern hardware options are finally appearing but the OS is languishing.
 
  The "it's just a hobby, be happy that it's not dead" argument is a pathetic excuse for inactivity. It's not a technical problem or a resource problem or a money problem - it's obvious that the wrong people are in control.
 

Well said M Rickan, but regardless of one's opinions about OS4 I think the Vampire team has done an amazing job.  Some of the finest German engineering I've seen in a while.  I am a bit biased in that regard as I started this life as a German citizen and became a US citizen later. ;-)  Gunnar and his team have made good on every promise they've made which is a stark contrast to what has been seen in the rest of the Amiga community.  The announcement of a hard FPU for the V4 should put to rest much of the antagonism we've seen on other sites and the lack of an 030 MMU is a moot point to 99% of current and prospective Vampire owners.



Eric Gus

Posts 404
02 Sep 2017 19:55


Steve Ferrell wrote:

  The announcement of a hard FPU for the V4 should put to rest much of the antagonism we've seen on other sites and the lack of an 030 MMU is a moot point to 99% of current and prospective Vampire owners.
 
 

 
  the other complaint I frequently see (aside from the FPU thing) is that the 080 is "incompatible" with the 060 and that is has these "modern" instruction inclusions and other "foreign" enhancements eg AMMX, etc, which is apparently off-putting to some of the more hard-core folks, and thats a legitimate point (yes its different but as Gunnar himself pointed out Moto's own tradition between chips), and I side with the vampire team on their inclusions, however, I think if the vampire team focuses on getting compatibility with the older classic software and apps then that will address 99% of the wider community.  People generally care if their game works as they expect it to and no so much as "how" it works or what color the magic smoke is in the chip thats driving it. As long as WHDload makes it work I think most "average" users will be very happy.


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 4797
02 Sep 2017 20:07


eric gus wrote:

The other complaint I frequently see (aside from the FPU thing) is that the 080 is "incompatible" with the 060

 
The 68080 is not incompatible.
All CPU instructions of 68040 and 68060 are 100% correctly supported on 68080.
 


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 770
02 Sep 2017 20:13


eric gus wrote:

  the other complaint I frequently see (aside from the FPU thing) is that the 080 is "incompatible" with the 060 and that is has these "modern" instruction inclusions and other "foreign" enhancements eg AMMX,

This would be quite right if 040 isnt fully compatibile with 020/030, 060 much more. In fact, beside 060 FPU, 080 is most compatibile CPU choice.

AMMX is "Foreign influence" but is most welclome, since there is no substitute. Yet, if they have PPC G4/G5/PA Semi they enjoy altivec accel. Which are more "alien" influences?


Steve Ferrell

Posts 393
02 Sep 2017 20:45


Vojin Vidanovic wrote:

eric gus wrote:

    the other complaint I frequently see (aside from the FPU thing) is that the 080 is "incompatible" with the 060 and that is has these "modern" instruction inclusions and other "foreign" enhancements eg AMMX,

 
  This would be quite right if 040 isnt fully compatibile with 020/030, 060 much more. In fact, beside 060 FPU, 080 is most compatibile CPU choice.
 
  AMMX is "Foreign influence" but is most welclome, since there is no substitute. Yet, if they have PPC G4/G5/PA Semi they enjoy altivec accel. Which are more "alien" influences?

I think that one of the reasons the Vampire detractors on other sites are so vocal is because they are becoming more irrelevant with each passing day.  Many of these detractors are self-proclaimed experts in all things Motorola and Amiga so now that no one is listening to them anymore, they simply shout louder and make more outrageous statements and spread misinformation to get attention. 

A good example of this is in the number of views and responses to threads.  It's common here to see thread views approaching 20,000 or more and responses in the thousands. Topics on the "other" sites stay in the double digits and one site in particular even went so far as to disable their view counter because of the low number of views.  I guess they were embarrassed by the low number of visitors.


Thierry Atheist

Posts 618
02 Sep 2017 20:46


m rickan wrote:
Regardless of which Amiga platform you favour, modern hardware options are finally appearing but the OS is languishing.

Hi m rickan,

Languishing? I'd like to take issue with that. What is lacking in say, AOS3.1? (Because many dismiss 3.5 and 3.9 as kind of clunky.)


Steve Ferrell

Posts 393
02 Sep 2017 20:55


Thierry Atheist wrote:

m rickan wrote:
Regardless of which Amiga platform you favour, modern hardware options are finally appearing but the OS is languishing.

  Hi m rickan,
 
  Languishing? I'd like to take issue with that. What is lacking in say, AOS3.1? (Because many dismiss 3.5 and 3.9 as kind of clunky.)

I don't want to put words in M Rickan's mouth, but I think he was referring to Hyperion's legal stranglehold on OS3.x  Most developers won't touch OS3.x with a 10 foot pole for fear of Hyperion taking them to court, even though Hyperion's claims of ownership are quite shaky.  It's doubtful that we'll ever see further OS3 development as long as its future lies in Hyperion's hands.  Same can be said for OS4.

I'd like to see OS3 with OpenGL support and 3D acceleration as a start but it won't happen.  The best hope for an enhanced OS3 on Vampire hardware is to toss out OS3 altogether and go with AROS 68K.


Thierry Atheist

Posts 618
02 Sep 2017 21:00


Steve Ferrell wrote:
Some of the finest German engineering I've seen in a while. I am a bit biased in that regard as I started this life as a German citizen and became a US citizen later. ;-)

Hi Steve,

Hmmm, I think that Majsta pretty much made the Vampire alone. He's Serbian. Mind you, I don't how much external input he's had.
Steve Ferrell wrote:
Gunnar and his team have made good on every promise they've made which is a stark contrast to what has been seen in the rest of the Amiga community.

I agree.
Steve Ferrell wrote:
The announcement of a hard FPU for the V4 should put to rest much of the antagonism we've seen on other sites and the lack of an 030 MMU is a moot point to 99% of current and prospective Vampire owners.

It's only about 5 to 15 people complaining... but they're really stubborn about it.

I don't care if they are NEVER customers, as, the Vampire numbers are passing 3,000 soon and I believe by the end of next year will get to 5,000+!!!

Hey, I've seen multiple people say they are wanting to buy 2 and even 3 Vampires (me included)!!!!!

It's turning into a real mob scene, like the Cabbage Patch Doll craze!!!!!!! ;-) :-D


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 770
02 Sep 2017 21:08


Steve Ferrell wrote:

  I'd like to see OS3 with OpenGL support and 3D acceleration as a start but it won't happen.  The best hope for an enhanced OS3 on Vampire hardware is to toss out OS3 altogether and go with AROS 68K.

Exactly, AROS 68k can provide all needed. That is why I beg people to support Kalamitee. I am sad I live in one of poorest European countries, so cant support him more. Who can, should. He pushed AROS 68k quite a lot and can more.

OS 3.9/Apollo should remain for legacy. No hurt in dual boot.



Thierry Atheist

Posts 618
02 Sep 2017 21:08


Steve Ferrell wrote:
I don't want to put words in M Rickan's mouth, but I think he was referring to Hyperion's legal stranglehold on OS3.x.

Hi Steve,

I am wondering more like, "what is the OS itself not able to do?"
Steve Ferrell wrote:
I'd like to see OS3 with OpenGL support and 3D acceleration as a start but it won't happen.  The best hope for an enhanced OS3 on Vampire hardware is to toss out OS3 altogether and go with AROS 68K.

And this has to become part of the operating system? Can't libraries just be added?

I'm aware that if we want SMP the OS would need a recompile, but wouldn't most old software stop working if that was done? As much as I'd like to see SMP, that just might not be an option.


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 770
02 Sep 2017 21:23


Thierry Atheist wrote:
 
    I'm aware that if we want SMP the OS would need a recompile, but wouldn't most old software stop working if that was done? As much as I'd like to see SMP, that just might not be an option.
 

 
  SMP is introduced just in x86 AROS, which uses UAE and is not binary compatibile. There it makes sense due to SMP x86 spread.
 
  Here and now, with Vampires and rest of 68k emulation and 060 Classics, we just need AROS 68k that keeps up with some other AROS x86 Arhievements like hardware accelerated MESA (OpenGL), HTML5 browser ... and in those modern terms 080 needs better support as Hyperthreading and AMMX accel. and SAGA gfx accel.
 
  There is much to be done until the SMP moment and there is no SMP 68k hardware. What is happening to execNG that Hypes are "testing" is OS4 crowd thing - while I find dubious x1000, x5000 and Tabor are all dual core while SMP is not on horizon. OS4 isnt really OS3 compatibile so its less an issue.
 
  Backporting x86 SMP AROS to PPC SMP AROS would be their quick route, but even with his "support MorphOS and AROS" policy Trevor never really supported AROS PPC. It was released just for SAM440 and not in much better shape then AROS 68k. And port was Acube supported.
 


Steve Ferrell

Posts 393
03 Sep 2017 01:20


Thierry Atheist wrote:

Steve Ferrell wrote:
I don't want to put words in M Rickan's mouth, but I think he was referring to Hyperion's legal stranglehold on OS3.x.

  Hi Steve,
 
  I am wondering more like, "what is the OS itself not able to do?"
 
Steve Ferrell wrote:
I'd like to see OS3 with OpenGL support and 3D acceleration as a start but it won't happen.  The best hope for an enhanced OS3 on Vampire hardware is to toss out OS3 altogether and go with AROS 68K.

  And this has to become part of the operating system? Can't libraries just be added?
 
  I'm aware that if we want SMP the OS would need a recompile, but wouldn't most old software stop working if that was done? As much as I'd like to see SMP, that just might not be an option.

I don't think SMP is as big a problem as some are making it out to be.  If OS3 or AROS 68K ever gained SMP it would be fairly easy to sandbox existing Amiga apps or run them under a UAE variant on the Vampire.  And because the Vampire uses a compatible CPU there would be no need for a JIT compiler as there is when using UAE on an Intel platform so any performance hits would be negligible.

Adding OpenGL support may be as simple as adding libraries but the problem with continuing to develop OS3 using the proprietary code base that was leaked some years ago sets the developer up for lawsuits. Especially if the developer has no licensing agreement with the copyright holder for such things as undocumented API calls that the developer may want to take advantage of when extending the OS.

I also found it interesting that Hyperion decided to buy the rights to the P96 code base once they were aware that the Vampire team was doing a considerable amount of development using existing P96 drivers.  I suspect that Hyperion will try to cash in on the Vampire's success by forcing some type of licensing agreement on the Apollo/vampire team or by forcing Vampire owners to buy P96 driver licenses.  The timing of the acquisition is at least suspect.

Gunnar has played it very smart by being a hardware developer and letting the consumer decide where and how to obtain their copy of OS3 and Picasso drivers, if needed/wanted.



Steve Ferrell

Posts 393
03 Sep 2017 01:27


Vojin Vidanovic wrote:

   
There is much to be done until the SMP moment and there is no SMP 68k hardware.
   

Actually the 68080 is the only SMP capable 68K series CPU in existence unless I misunderstood Gunnar's posts.  OS3 nor AROS 68K yet support SMP....OS3.x will never be SMP enabled due to its legal status.  But there's hope for AROS 68K as the x86_64 version of AROS is already SMP capable.


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 770
03 Sep 2017 01:54


Steve Ferrell wrote:

    Actually the 68080 is the only SMP capable 68K series CPU

 
  Even in initial V500 World premiere Igor mentioned future plans such as DDR3 memory, going ASIC, having even several CPUs if FPGA is big enough ... and even making phone, embed etc. markets, but that is a long dream stretch. So far so good.
 
  So, yes, its arhitecturally capable, but never (yet) implemented,
  and yes, AROS 68k is best candidate PROVIDED its DEVELOPED MEANWHILE Apollo team develops hardware route.
 
  I am starting to be boring, but Kalamitee and some AROS bounties seem essential to us :-) AmiKit X is nice, ApolloOS too, but one they will hit the wall.
 
  With hardFPU I hope! :-)

Steve Ferrell wrote:

  I also found it interesting that Hyperion decided to buy the rights to the P96 code base once they were aware that the Vampire team was doing a considerable amount of development using existing P96 drivers.
  Gunnar has played it very smart by being a hardware developer and letting the consumer decide where and how to obtain their copy of OS3 and Picasso drivers, if needed/wanted.

I believe I have read somewhere transaction failed in the end. Hope its good.

Yes, while it gives us some headaches to build the system, essentially hardware vendor bares no responsibility for what user installs. Its not OEM is VAMP EM :-)


Steve Ferrell

Posts 393
03 Sep 2017 03:01


I believe I have read somewhere transaction failed in the end. Hope its good.

The transaction didn't fail. Hyperion and Jens bought the rights with the intention of a joint venture and were supposed to have a press release detailing what the new joint venture would entail.  But Jens stated that Hyperion couldn't provide him with what he needed and that there would be no press release.  I assume based on the tone of his message that there wouldn't be any real new product(s) arising out of the acquisition either, but I may be wrong. 


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 770
03 Sep 2017 10:06


Steve Ferrell wrote:
  product(s) arising out of the acquisition either, but I may be wrong.

 
  Except updated Personal Paint that is current faith of all AEON/Hype "blessed" purchases. Hope it wont stay that way.
 
  On AROS 68k: Needs IDE and Gfx speed updates for Vampire, OWB updated, Final Writter included etc.
  I hope other Vampire users have great interest in supporting an
  bootable/installable ISO of AROS 68k to come with Vampires V4,
  which is nice oportunity for AROS users spread. We need to explore how feasable / cost in developer support / lenghty job is that.
 
  On Femu: I am glad it is constantly improving, en route to hardFPUs
 
  Bright future it might be. If everyone does the job, including uses supporting willing developers.

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