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Information about the Apollo CPU and FPU.

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M Rickan

Posts 174
01 Sep 2017 03:10


Roy Gillotti wrote:

  What mission critical hinderance does not having a traditional  Amiga compatible MMU cause?

I don't recall mentioning anything was mission critical.

The point is why would anyone ever want to forego a feature that (if included) would provide general value and and make the reimplementation complete?


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 4797
01 Sep 2017 08:19


m rickan wrote:

Roy Gillotti wrote:

  What mission critical hinderance does not having a traditional  Amiga compatible MMU cause?
 

 
I don't recall mentioning anything was mission critical.
 
The point is why would anyone ever want to forego a feature that (if included) would provide general value and and make the reimplementation complete?

As you might know, every 68K model had a different and incompatible MMU to each other.

The reason for this is, that every time a new 68K CPU came out,
its MMU was adapted to what was "state of the art" in this year.

68080 follows this MOTOROLA tradition.
68080 has an MMU and its updated to be modern.



Lorenzo Pistone

Posts 20
01 Sep 2017 10:51


Gunnar von Boehn wrote:

m rickan wrote:

 
Roy Gillotti wrote:

    What mission critical hinderance does not having a traditional  Amiga compatible MMU cause?
 

 
  I don't recall mentioning anything was mission critical.
 
  The point is why would anyone ever want to forego a feature that (if included) would provide general value and and make the reimplementation complete?
 

 
  As you might know, every 68K model had a different and incompatible MMU to each other.
 
  The reason for this is, that every time a new 68K CPU came out,
  its MMU was adapted to what was "state of the art" in this year.
 
  68080 follows this MOTOROLA tradition.
  68080 has an MMU and its updated to be modern.
 

It is possible to patch the call to the old mmu to the 080 one like was done with 68040.library to call the 68060.library?
Just to increase the compatibility.


Markus B

Posts 193
01 Sep 2017 11:13


I am curious: How many applications make use of the MMU?

Everything which is about Virtual Memory can be sorted out, as memory is not a big deal anymore on the Vampire Accelerators.

What else is there?


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 770
01 Sep 2017 11:42


Markus B wrote:

  Everything which is about Virtual Memory can be sorted out, as memory is not a big deal anymore on the Vampire Accelerators.
  What else is there?

I believe debugging/memory protection from crashes are most important uses, so Enfocer is I suppose the most important tool
EXTERNAL LINK  EXTERNAL LINK 
I believe ImageFX and few apps were able to use MMU for paging (Vmem). There is also virtual mem for whole OS requiring MMU
EXTERNAL LINK 
But it has MMUless replacement EXTERNAL LINK 
It can be used for softkicking and ROM mapping, but new 2.7+ core will have that using ApolloMMU.

It can be used for memory protection
EXTERNAL LINK 
I dont see/remember other uses. MMU thing maybe needs a separate thread.

So its basically just abused argument for kicking Apollo down.

Amix, UNIX and Linux68k as well as native TOS and ClassicMacOS might expect it since I believe 030+ machines were with MMU.


Samuel Devulder

Posts 246
01 Sep 2017 11:43


Debugging tools like Enforcer do use MMU.
   
[ADVERT]Alternatively, without MMU you can use things like EXTERNAL LINK [/ADVERT] (Guess who is the author :) )
 
Some video driver for ShapeShifter also use the MMU to quicky detect modified video chunks IIRC.
   
sam (sorry for the duplicate. Vojin and I wrote in the very same minute :) )


Thierry Atheist

Posts 618
01 Sep 2017 17:34


Vojin Vidanovic wrote:
So its basically just abused argument for kicking Apollo down.

How bored does one have to be to....

The reason I've stated "I don't care about MMU..." is, it slows the computer down... we don't need that.

Also, I prefer that programs could look into other programs' address space. I remember using a program on Amiga that could look anywhere in the system RAM. I like that. I think that I was able to even change the data anywhere. Of course, you risked the chance of the system crashing.... but, it was possible, which is what was most important.


Steve Ferrell

Posts 393
01 Sep 2017 18:30


Thierry Atheist wrote:

 
Vojin Vidanovic wrote:
So its basically just abused argument for kicking Apollo down.

  How bored does one have to be to....
 
  The reason I've stated "I don't care about MMU..." is, it slows the computer down... we don't need that.
 
  Also, I prefer that programs could look into other programs' address space. I remember using a program on Amiga that could look anywhere in the system RAM. I like that. I think that I was able to even change the data anywhere. Of course, you risked the chance of the system crashing.... but, it was possible, which is what was most important.
 

 
Well, the whole argument FOR an MMU being needed for development and debugging is pretty weak.  98% or more of classic Amiga software development was done on a 68K processor which didn't have an MMU.
 
Having an MMU to debug and trap illegal instructions was a nice feature that came along later and only served to encourage poor programming habits by assembly programmers.  People need to remember that the purpose of the MMU is to manage virtual memory on operating systems that support virtual memory and paging.  It was NOT designed with the intention of being a debug tool for Amiga developers since the AmigaOS didn't support an MMU in the first place.  Some creative developers just wrote some tools to take advantage of the MMU for debugging later in the Amiga's life cycle since one had been integrated into the 68030 and above.
 


Thierry Atheist

Posts 618
02 Sep 2017 08:01


Hi Steve Ferrell,

You've encapsulated things that I don't (fully) know about the MMU perfectly, and shown that there are people out there, that are anti-VAMPIRE who are "grasping at straws" to put us in a bad light, and make it perceived to be "an incomplete AMIGA REPLACEMENT"!!!!!!!!

THIS IS AN AMIGA REPLACEMENT in EVERY WAY.

VAMPIRE IS THE FUTURE of AMIGA.

I'm pro AOS4 and their PPC computers.....

But, what I've really ever wanted was, NatAmi, and now it's transformed into Apollo Core, SO, if you want genuine AMIGA... it's right here... right now and it's BLAZING HOT!


Steve Ferrell

Posts 393
02 Sep 2017 08:47


Thierry Atheist wrote:

Hi Steve Ferrell,
 
  You've encapsulated things that I don't (fully) know about the MMU perfectly, and shown that there are people out there, that are anti-VAMPIRE who are "grasping at straws" to put us in a bad light, and make it perceived to be "an incomplete AMIGA REPLACEMENT"!!!!!!!!
 
  THIS IS AN AMIGA REPLACEMENT in EVERY WAY.
 
  VAMPIRE IS THE FUTURE of AMIGA.
 
  I'm pro AOS4 and their PPC computers.....
 
  But, what I've really ever wanted was, NatAmi, and now it's transformed into Apollo Core, SO, if you want genuine AMIGA... it's right here... right now and it's BLAZING HOT!

Yes, you are correct.  I won't mention the names but I will mention that there are a handful of people over at A.org who have made it their life's mission to smear anything related to the Vampire.  The atmosphere there has become oppressive and almost every thread gets hijacked by these folks and anyone who says anything that's the least bit positive about the Vampire gets flamed.  It's as if they're jealous of the success and there is also a handful of users there who feel threatened because they feel that with so many people buying Vampires that OS4 hardware and software development will be negatively impacted.  I can see their point but they shouldn't blame the Vampire team.  They should be blaming Hyperion for keeping OS4 on life-support since 2004 instead of delivering on the promises they made so many years ago, such as SMP, an office suite and a decent web browser that supports modern frameworks.  I've been hearing about an office suite and SMP for over 10 years now.  It's time for them to put up or shut up.  As for me, Hyperion and A-EON lost me as a customer long ago with their misleading Xena marketing campaign and vastly overpriced hardware.




Eric Gus

Posts 404
02 Sep 2017 08:57


Steve Ferrell wrote:

  vastly overpriced hardware.
 

 
  when I was looking at getting back into the amiga community the first thing I did was look at these new "Next Gen / OS4" systems.. then I saw the cost.. and laughed.. and laughed and laughed.. and said ... "no" .. then looked into emulation, AROS x86 then finally reviving my original hardware.
 
  No for what amounts to a boutique bit of hardware that (lets all be honest really doesn't have an genesis or connection with the classic lines of machines other than say name.. there is nothing really left of them in these new systems .. they are, yes "amiga like" but they aren't and have no actual "classic amiga" in them now.. someone may own copyrights or other legalities but that doesn't really connect them to the past.  For the cost of these machines, they are very poor in terms of price/performance when compared to off the shelf commodity x86 machines.. (im sorry but a nice high-end core i7 will blow the doors off these NG systems)  .. That said, if the cost of an NG system was more reasonable, say sub $1000 USD then I might have actually considered it.. If the NG systems really want to make it, they need to realize that x86/commodity off the shelf hardware is their future and get OS4 ported to x86 .. then they "might" have a chance of getting some small fraction of the percentage that desktop linux has (and lets face it .. desktop linux combined has a mind blowingly small number of users compared to mobile and even tiny when compared to regular desktop OS's) .. OS4 will never be mainstream on NG, that ship sailed a long before those machines were created.
 
  I should add, the standalone vampire has a chance in that, its inexpensive when compared to NG (or building out a classic machine) and its **new** hardware , it also runs the old classic OSs and applications (for the most part .. certain apps aside) .. this is where the vampire will excell .. it will have that market of retro hobbyists wanting to get back into the community and either lack their old amiga and have no desire to buy a classic system and also are not enthusiastic about software emulation and want something more dedicated. I dont however envision these retro hobbists wanting to do modern "things" on their vampires, but use all the old pre-internet era apps and games .. so no photoshop and HTML5 browsing, but yes to cannon fodder and superfrog.
 


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 770
02 Sep 2017 09:22


eric gus wrote:

  .. so no photoshop and HTML5 browsing, but yes to cannon fodder and superfrog.

Currently there is some older OWB on AROS 68k and that might improve and Photoshop 4 I believe under MacOS Classic emulation :-)



Steve Ferrell

Posts 393
02 Sep 2017 09:23


eric gus wrote:

Steve Ferrell wrote:

  vastly overpriced hardware.
 

 
  when I was looking at getting back into the amiga community the first thing I did was look at these new "Next Gen / OS4" systems.. then I saw the cost.. and laughed.. and laughed and laughed.. and said ... "no" .. then looked into emulation, AROS x86 then finally reviving my original hardware.
 
  No for what amounts to a boutique bit of hardware that (lets all be honest really doesn't have an genesis or connection with the classic lines of machines other than say name.. there is nothing really left of them in these new systems .. they are, yes "amiga like" but they aren't and have no actual "classic amiga" in them now.. someone may own copyrights or other legalities but that doesn't really connect them to the past.  For the cost of these machines, they are very poor in terms of price/performance when compared to off the shelf commodity x86 machines.. (im sorry but a nice high-end core i7 will blow the doors off these NG systems)  .. That said, if the cost of an NG system was more reasonable, say sub $1000 USD then I might have actually considered it.. If the NG systems really want to make it, they need to realize that x86/commodity off the shelf hardware is their future and get OS4 ported to x86 .. then they "might" have a chance of getting some small fraction of the percentage that desktop linux has (and lets face it .. desktop linux combined has a mind blowingly small number of users compared to mobile and even tiny when compared to regular desktop OS's) .. OS4 will never be mainstream on NG, that ship sailed a long before those machines were created.
 
  I should add, the standalone vampire has a chance in that, its inexpensive when compared to NG (or building out a classic machine) and its **new** hardware , it also runs the old classic OSs and applications (for the most part .. certain apps aside) .. this is where the vampire will excell .. it will have that market of retro hobbyists wanting to get back into the community and either lack their old amiga and have no desire to buy a classic system and also are not enthusiastic about software emulation and want something more dedicated.
 

I agree with you 100%.  Now if you had posted this same message over at A.org, you would have first been flamed and then gotten yourself banned for 5 months.....I should know, because I was banned for 5 months for stating similar thoughts, which according to the moderator who banned me was considered trolling.    Since A-EON bought the A.org web site the censorship there has become ridiculous.  Only fan-boy and cheerleader posts allowed there.  Even valid criticism of OS4 or the hardware that runs it gets you banned.  I can't imagine Hyperion and A-EON being in business much longer if they continue clinging to a dead OS and pushing hardware that performs on par with systems from 2003 at outlandish prices.....not to mention drowning out any voices of those who want a better product. 



Casper Steuperaert

Posts 3
02 Sep 2017 10:56


Steve Ferrell wrote:

  I agree with you 100%.  Now if you had posted this same message over at A.org, you would have first been flamed and then gotten yourself banned for 5 months.....I should know, because I was banned for 5 months for stating similar thoughts, which according to the moderator who banned me was considered trolling.    Since A-EON bought the A.org web site the censorship there has become ridiculous.  Only fan-boy and cheerleader posts allowed there.  Even valid criticism of OS4 or the hardware that runs it gets you banned.  I can't imagine Hyperion and A-EON being in business much longer if they continue clinging to a dead OS and pushing hardware that performs on par with systems from 2003 at outlandish prices.....not to mention drowning out any voices of those who want a better product. 

That's not the entire story is it Steve? There is a difference between voicing legitimate gripes with OS4 and actively gunning down everything that has anything to do with it or with PPC. Hijacking threads and insulting people is something you get legitimately banned for, not censored. It's sad that there has to be such animosity while many people would enjoy all aspects of Amiga (be it Morph OS, AROS, AOS4, PPC, M68K or x86).


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 770
02 Sep 2017 11:04


Casper Steuperaert wrote:

  That's not the entire story is it Steve? There is a difference between voicing legitimate gripes with OS4 and actively gunning down everything that has anything to do with it or with PPC.

I dont believe PPC is dead, just that x1000/x5000 are unfinished products in software terms and its sad to see x1000, as an example, has been abandoned (missing drivers, promised OS 4.2, Linux support on SI cards).

There is a difference, and there is truth that AEON/Hype censor legitimate questions even at support forum or shift responsibilities between legal entities. Many people have observed increased censorship since AW.net and A.org are dependent.

No matter what, status of FPU is here the issue, and I see valid critics of Vampire at A.org not being much happy there will be an FPU.


Nicolas Sipieter
(Needs Verification)
Posts 115/ 1
02 Sep 2017 11:18


eric gus wrote:

[..] That said, if the cost of an NG system was more reasonable, say sub $1000 USD then I might have actually considered it [..]

real meaning of Amiga "NG" must be: "No Good" ;)
even if it costed less than $300 i would still not use them.
to find hyperion's communication skills one must dig a hole in the ground :)
their technical skills then seems quite 'NG' too.
years and years after years of nothing. the same re-heated turd.




Casper Steuperaert

Posts 3
02 Sep 2017 11:24


Vojin Vidanovic wrote:

  I dont believe PPC is dead, just that x1000/x5000 are unfinished products in software terms and its sad to see x1000, as an example, has been abandoned (missing drivers, promised OS 4.2, Linux support on SI cards).
 
  There is a difference, and there is truth that AEON/Hype censor legitimate questions even at support forum or shift responsibilities between legal entities. Many people have observed increased censorship since AW.net and A.org are dependent.
 
  No matter what, status of FPU is here the issue, and I see valid critics of Vampire at A.org not being much happy there will be an FPU.

The legal status is a soup on all fronts unfortunatly, so I just try to lean back and wait for results. Speculation on the legal side rarely gets anywhere.

I just think it's a bit sad when classic fans attack the PPC machines, since they have some great uses (despite their shortcomings) or when AOS4 fans attack the Apollo project for the FPU (which is an issue, but I'm very confident the Apollo team will solve it in due time).

On both sides, supporting and developing hardware and software with such an intensity for a relatively small platform is nothing short of miraculous and I think that could be acknowledged more on both sides.

As long as we don't argue like those new Phase 5 guys which seem to do nothing but to hack into the Apollo team while they only show what look to be photoshopped images all the time (they even shut down their comment section for a while).


Mr Niding

Posts 446
02 Sep 2017 12:36


Casper Steuperaert wrote:

Steve Ferrell wrote:

  I agree with you 100%.  Now if you had posted this same message over at A.org, you would have first been flamed and then gotten yourself banned for 5 months.....I should know, because I was banned for 5 months for stating similar thoughts, which according to the moderator who banned me was considered trolling.    Since A-EON bought the A.org web site the censorship there has become ridiculous.  Only fan-boy and cheerleader posts allowed there.  Even valid criticism of OS4 or the hardware that runs it gets you banned.  I can't imagine Hyperion and A-EON being in business much longer if they continue clinging to a dead OS and pushing hardware that performs on par with systems from 2003 at outlandish prices.....not to mention drowning out any voices of those who want a better product. 
 

  That's not the entire story is it Steve? There is a difference between voicing legitimate gripes with OS4 and actively gunning down everything that has anything to do with it or with PPC. Hijacking threads and insulting people is something you get legitimately banned for, not censored. It's sad that there has to be such animosity while many people would enjoy all aspects of Amiga (be it Morph OS, AROS, AOS4, PPC, M68K or x86).

+1

I was going to post something along these lines, but you (Casper) beat me to it.

Ive been puzzled over the insistance of negativity about xyz platforms, and then cry foul when someone does the same in return.
I might agree with several of the objective arguments about AOS4 or PPC for example, but I dont feel the need to stereotype the users that might actually enjoy using it.
As ssolie said in a AmiWest speech, he could make life easier by skipping many steps they are currently taking, breaking xyz compability. But where is the fun in that? He uses AOS for fun, as a distraction from his dayjob etc.

If that attitude doesnt fit your view and progress expectation, then dont join the PPC/AOS4 crowd. That fine. But I dont see the need of pissing all over peoples peferences.

And for some reason we get puzzled/annoyed when people attack Vampire.

We reap what we sow.


Peter Heginbotham

Posts 186
02 Sep 2017 13:10


people are drifting off topic here.


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 770
02 Sep 2017 13:19


Mr Niding wrote:

    And for some reason we get puzzled/annoyed when people attack Vampire. We reap what we sow.
   

   
    Well, and they should reap what they have seeded, and Steven
    just keep promising (when was OS 4.2 announced?)
   
    Point is, with Vampires its less talk more walk.
   
    FPU was issue, softFPU is here, hard one on the way.
   
    Just wish Hype boys had the same spirit and delivery skills. Normally, people would
    denounce them as liars in ordinary life. Its good they have
    cult like bussiness, rational people would abandon them by
    much development in past 13 years.
   
    Never forget its a competition to small number of souls, and Vampires for many reasons, seems to atract more people. Me first, as past OS4 user and promoter (when I believed what AEON/Hype promised. Ended with half usable x1000).
   
    Now, back on topic,
   
    Its good Vamps will have FPU, together with AGA in core v3,
    V4 Vampires should have 99% 68k compatibility, which is great.
 
  As comparison, much OS3 software (system friendly WB/RTG) needed heavy patching to work or failed miserably on OS 4.1. Even things that used to work get broken on way to OS 4.1FE. Petunia was not enough as much compatibility was broken, by Hype decisions. Apart from PPC UAE JIT and glUAE, OS4 has less then 10% compatibility out of box. Number of OS4 exclusive titles is as about of those needing Vampire ports done in less then 1 year.
 
  Vampire should be best Xorro card for "NG"s

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