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Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 6207
12 Jul 2017 13:27


Chain Q wrote:

But this is neither new knowledge, neither Amiga specific really...

So you are saying that in the golden days
- AMIGA coders used ASM and the tricks of the AMIGA chipset (copper) to create stuff which was impressive and surpassing other systems?

- but today the remaining coders not use AMIGA chipset nor use ASM fully, so they do what everyone else could also do on a Pentium@166 MHz - only that it runs now slower on the AMIGA ?



Chain Q

Posts 19
12 Jul 2017 13:44


Gunnar von Boehn wrote:
So you are saying that in the golden days
  - AMIGA coders used ASM and the tricks of the AMIGA chipset (copper) to create stuff which was impressive and surpassing other systems?

  Mostly it was about the knowledge of the custom chipset and it's creative/unconvetional use, yes. The Amiga hardware was special in the way, that is'a very clean architecture, so you don't "glitch" it, like you glitch a VIC-II in a C64 to achieve new effects, you just try to use the *MANY* features it provides in a creative way. This is what traditional Amiga demos do and did.
 
 
- but today the remaining coders not use AMIGA chipset nor use ASM fully, so they do what everyone else could also do on a Pentium@166 MHz - only that it runs now slower on the AMIGA?

  It's a bit more complicated than that.
 
  For the majority of the '060 demos that's true. Lately, there were some demos though, which used some custom chipset tricks too - for example Last Train to Danzig by Haujobb/Ghostown uses the copper to draw a background for the 060-rendered 3D parts. Some demos by Unique use some creative resolutions to ease rendering load on the CPU. Ephidrena also did a few intros/demos during the last years which were pushing both the CPU and the custom chipset.
 
  And of course, no one (not many people) write demos for a P166 with DOS, and there's no dedicated competition for that on any significant party, so if you want equal competition and relatively big audience, you do it for the Amiga. Writing demos for the Amiga it's pretty much the same as writing it for a C64 or making a size limited entry - it's an artificial limit which every competitor agrees in, therefore it makes the challenge interesting. And of course most people still love the Amiga as a platform, but everyone loves it for their own reasons. :)
 
  This is the same reason why Raspberry Pi demoscene existed for a brief period - before they started to introduce faster RPis with more RAM - it was just a "stock" ARM Linux, with some OpenGL ES videochip, but the equal, and equally limited hardware made the challenge interesting. The RPi scene attempt died the moment they introduced an RPi with more RAM, basically.
 
  This is why the existing scene is moving very slowly away, if at all from the A500 or the A1200/060 combo. Its well defined limits *DEFINE* the scene and the competitions.
 
  If someone wants faster hardware for their demos, there's a billion things out there to choose from, really, that never was the problem...


Djole Djole

Posts 35
12 Jul 2017 21:01


To me, it was clear from the beginning Apollo core would not be interesting for demo scene. It was mentioned a few times on IRC.... Demo coders seem to like limits, Apollo core has no limits, current limit is the used FPGA on the Vampire board and even this is changing with every core release. So there is no clear limit, its not interesting, its becomes like PC compo...


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 770
12 Jul 2017 22:08


- Vampires not interesting to demo scene for having "No clear limit"
 
  Currently, it looks so.
 
  But, V500 and V600 are what? 60-90Mhz
  Even with nice SAGA features, it sets some bar.
 
  We ll see what standalone and V1200/V4000 will come with - how much of bigger FPGA will bring to 080 speed,
  but then again, it would set just another possible bar
  (like e.g. 030/060 demos).
 
  Everything expected, will be there to use.
  Especially as SAGA documentation should be avail and even
  it opensourced, if I remember it.
 
  So GOLD3 core actually make the limit with SAGA, with whatever
  080 power there is as complementary to do some heavy lifting.


Johannes Schäfer

Posts 47
13 Jul 2017 00:56


In my opinion, the question is not, if someone want to code a demo in C or convert a PC demo to Amiga.

Please don´t start a discussion about Vampire as demo platform.

In the context, that here is a CPU (68080) and the SAGA chipset in development, I understood Gunnar, that he asked, if there is someone out here, who already coded demos in assembler using blitter/copper, and who want to test the new features (68080, AMMX, SAGA) by coding a demo.

This would be a nice help to show the possibilities of SAGA and maybe doing adjustment and improvements.



Chris Dennett

Posts 67
13 Jul 2017 12:01


Djole Djole wrote:

To me, it was clear from the beginning Apollo core would not be interesting for demo scene. It was mentioned a few times on IRC.... Demo coders seem to like limits, Apollo core has no limits, current limit is the used FPGA on the Vampire board and even this is changing with every core release. So there is no clear limit, its not interesting, its becomes like PC compo...

The old Amiga still exists, and you can still write demos for it. It reeks of the "oh no, they are making more sequels to some movies I liked in the past, but these new ones are by a different director so I'll protest against them and kick up a fuss" attitude.



Chain Q

Posts 19
13 Jul 2017 13:19


Chris Dennett wrote:
The old Amiga still exists, and you can still write demos for it. It reeks of the "oh no, they are making more sequels to some movies I liked in the past, but these new ones are by a different director so I'll protest against them and kick up a fuss" attitude.

No, I told this already, when people wanted to push Vampire as a Revision compomachine, and it was echoed by many scene coders: give us a faster and software compatible in replacement for a 68060 accelerator for an A1200 and we're all (well most/some of us anyway) on board. But I wasn't willing to take a THIRD compomachine option, with a continuously updated softcore, which might have a different set of features next week, with partial compatibility, without emulator, and without large scale development tool support. That's clearly something for the Wild compo, not the Amiga compo, at this state.

The Apollo Team has decided to take another route, instead of the A1200 accelerator. Which is all fine, their decision. But it's not what most of the sceners wanted, so the demoscene is not on board. And somehow it's the scene's fault. Well, *shrug*.

But I also said, the scene is not uniform in its opinions, so I just speak for myself and the parties I organize. ;) And neither anything is carved in stone, forever. But at this point, the I'd say the above still stands.


Martin Soerensen

Posts 232
13 Jul 2017 13:21


Someone might want to make some cool demos for the Vampire platform, however it is very doubtful it will ever see more than a handful since it is a moving target. As mentioned, it is much more fun to develop for a target platform that you know is not going to change. It sets a level playing field for people to compete, and the more severe the limitations, the more creative you have to be. :-) The C64 scene is massive for the same reason and I really like watching all the new C64 demos that are coming out. I keep being amazed at what they can squeeze out of the old machine..

The Amiga demo scene is mainly split into two groups, the 7 MHz 68k 512kB OCS demos and the AGA 060 ones. I hope that eventually I will be able to watch the AGA 060 demos on the Vampire with a performance that would be comparable to the platform it was targeted for, i.e. an AGA machine with 60~80 MHz 060.


Chain Q

Posts 19
13 Jul 2017 13:29


Martin Soerensen wrote:
I hope that eventually I will be able to watch the AGA 060 demos on the Vampire with a performance that would be comparable to the platform it was targeted for, i.e. an AGA machine with 60~80 MHz 060.

Fully agreed.


Markus B

Posts 209
13 Jul 2017 17:27


Well, at some point development will settle. I understand that the current development is too fast.

Then a V1200 might become a new interesting target for demo coding.

This has always happened, otherwise we would still be stuck with OCS/512k demos, right?


Nicolas Sipieter
(Needs Verification)
Posts 115/ 1
13 Jul 2017 17:30


apparently some of you people commenting here,
  didn't understand the part where you could just code like you always did,
  be it for 030, 040 or 060, using rtg or custom chips like you always did,
  do not change a thing it's ok too.
 
  classic amiga programs will run fine on the apollo core.
  so just ignore the new features if they, somehow, scare you.
 
  and, compared to other cpu, apollo core is getting updates, that's true.
  but each new update brings more compatibility and new features also.
  it's not like the usual 68k asm instructions are getting deleted or changed every new update.
 
  the apollo-core is not a moving target.
  some seems to think it's difficult to code for it because the api/instruction set etc would be 'still unfinished' and getting remodeled all the time. that is not the case.
  just code for amiga as you always did and it will be fine.
 
  the changes are happening on new features, or under the hood for the classic features. but for coders it's transparent. it's just business as usual, of course.
   
  soft-fpu for now, hard fpu for later..rome wasn't built in one day.
  i don't understand why you're all nitpicking over nothing.


Manuel Jesus

Posts 155
13 Jul 2017 21:10


Progress my friends.... TV paint 3.6, a FPU only paint app, one of the POWER APPS on Amiga now runs on Vampire thanks to the work on the FPU!
 
EXTERNAL LINK


Michael Nurney

Posts 283
13 Jul 2017 21:13


the link is dead....


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 770
13 Jul 2017 21:35


Manuel Jesus wrote:

Progress my friends.... TV paint 3.6, a FPU only paint app, one of the POWER APPS on Amiga now runs on Vampire thanks to the work on the FPU!

Glad about it. Will softFPU be a downloadable software patch ("app") or it will be in Kickstart/Core Update, and switchable ON/OFF somehow?


Simo Koivukoski
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 601
13 Jul 2017 22:04


Here is an ideal example of SoftFPU that can run this demo which require FPU in an Amiga.

EXTERNAL LINK


John William

Posts 563
13 Jul 2017 22:35


Simo Koivukoski wrote:

  Here is an ideal example of SoftFPU that can run this demo which require FPU in an Amiga.
 
 
 
  EXTERNAL LINK 

 
  So after seeing that video are everyone happy now? Are we done bitchin about FPU? Can we please stop complaining and be happy for ones? Can we focus on improving the community and not whining and stomping our feet?

I swear if I was Gunnar von Boehn I would start blocking every complainer and troller right now. But I am not him. So..enough complaining, please!


Djole Djole

Posts 35
13 Jul 2017 23:18


nicolas sipieter wrote:

apparently some of you people commenting here,
  didn't understand the part where you could just code like you always did,
  be it for 030, 040 or 060, using rtg or custom chips like you always did,
  do not change a thing it's ok too.
 
  classic amiga programs will run fine on the apollo core.
  so just ignore the new features if they, somehow, scare you.
 
  and, compared to other cpu, apollo core is getting updates, that's true.
  but each new update brings more compatibility and new features also.
  it's not like the usual 68k asm instructions are getting deleted or changed every new update.
 
  the apollo-core is not a moving target.
  some seems to think it's difficult to code for it because the api/instruction set etc would be 'still unfinished' and getting remodeled all the time. that is not the case.
  just code for amiga as you always did and it will be fine.
 
  the changes are happening on new features, or under the hood for the classic features. but for coders it's transparent. it's just business as usual, of course.
   
  soft-fpu for now, hard fpu for later..rome wasn't built in one day.
  i don't understand why you're all nitpicking over nothing.

I think you missed the point... Demo coders are "supposed" to use the target hw to the max, Apollo core IS a moving target since every core release brings news improvements, speed ups, features... If you are going to code like for the original hw, whats the point of coding for Apollo core ? If you code for Apollo core and you want optimal performance, you are going to chase a moving target. A500 OCS and Aga with 060 is not changing, so all the competitors have the same limitations. Limitations bring the best out....


Thierry Atheist

Posts 644
13 Jul 2017 23:51


Yes, there are two bodies of thought;

a) It's a moving target, I'm not interested....

and

b) Let's see what a POWERFUL AMIGA can do!!!!!

"a)" is going to be a "relatively temporary" situation.

"b)" will "win" in the end.

Unfortunately, the most "stationary target" is going to be the (~expensive) standalone....

The demoscene coders will show up then, eventually....


Chain Q

Posts 19
14 Jul 2017 00:16


John William wrote:
So after seeing that video are everyone happy now? Are we done bitchin about FPU? Can we please stop complaining and be happy for ones?

No, sorry. Cherry picking a demo which happen to run fast doesn't help, really. Question arise, like it requires the demo runtime or loading/precalc time? Obviously in the second case, the runtime performance won't be compromised. Also, if it only uses a few instructions runtime, that will also be fine, probably. Why is it even necessary to explain these things..?

There was Kioea by Madwizards, which was clearly very slow in one of the previous recordings, even if it proved the emu was working fine. (Which is nice.) So how about testing any improvement with that. Or as I said before, Quake, even if that's not a demo, because that's even interactive. These clearly rely on a *FAST* FPU.

  swear if I was Gunnar von Boehn I would start blocking every complainer and troller right now.

Yeah, that helps bringing people on board too.


Wawa T

Posts 695
14 Jul 2017 01:21


@Chain Q
very right..

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