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Do It, Do It Now.page  1 2 3 

Nicolas Sipieter
(Needs Verification)
Posts 115/ 1
12 Nov 2019 07:34


break the damn compatibility and implement what need to be done  already!

i'm sure modern features could be implemented but yet retain 90% of the general concept and guidelines of amiga.
keep all the general ideas, make something different that closely resemble. something like 90% amiga way.
current amiga-like-os memory handling sucks. why ? because it allow for frequent crashes. that is the hard truth about amigaos.

in its hey days, amigaos was more stable than its competitors, we used to call windows system: 'crashing machines, and windows users: 'lamers'. now the situation is reversed. all other OSes are rock stable (windows too) but not amiga.
why is that ? because all other OSes went through modifications to include new discoveries about memory handling and amiga did not.

windows broke compatibility too, yet found a way to allow running old soft.
macos broke compatibility too, yet found a way also to run old softs.

atari also have a version with memory protection.

all other OSes found one way or another a mean to implement more regulated and strict memory handling and retain ability to run old soft.

amigaos fails here because when amigaos dev think about ways to try to implement all the necessary changes they try to make it so old soft will accept natively the new memory system and run transparently on it.
that is more difficult to do that way. even skilled devs tried to figure a way to do that but concluded it is not possible.

what need to be done is this:
make necessary amend to amiga-like-OSes.
- smp
- memory protection
- resource tracking
- unicode
and then make a special case support on exe loader so it can detect and support old soft, simulating their expected env, in a constrained OS3 sandbox ..

that's more or less what win and mac did.

obviously amigaos is still closed source.
but aros could do that, because it is open. (aros is already experimenting around these ideas and produced WIP prototypes.)
also worth noting is morphos also is taking this direction (real smp and mp announced on their forum for their 'morphos ng'.

you can resist doing those change for another 20years,
pretending what i'm saying is non-sense drivel, and that i know nothing about amiga, and that it doesn't crashes once you have verified softs correct alimentation and unconflicting libs and well tuned system. i say: bullshit. amiga-like-os do crash. they are as stable as a drunk camel struck by a hard case of dysentry.
while it's running it's amazing and great. but it doesn't keep on running. you have to do amiga heart massage with reset every hour or such because memory went fubar and the system is crumbling.
what's worse, amiga-like-OSes cannot properly kill crashed tasks and free the allocated resources..
it was all good in the 90s.
now it scream for help.



Kyle Blake

Posts 42
12 Nov 2019 08:18


Vampire is a project to make a very fast Amiga 68k computer.

It isn't an OS development project.

Many people have suggested radical changes to AmigaOS. Hundreds of people. If you want to see it, start with the Abacus book "Amiga C for Beginners", ISBN 1-55755-045-x

Practice hard and in 5 years you can begin to make the changes you want.


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 4192
12 Nov 2019 08:20


Good answer Kyle!

AMIGA OS is designed the way it is.
Either love it -  or move on to something else.

What you try to do here is like
you married a black woman for live and then ask if she could make herself look like Marilyn Monroe by bleaching skin and hair.
 
Don't do this!


Nicolas Sipieter
(Needs Verification)
Posts 115/ 1
12 Nov 2019 09:21


@gunnar,
  i agree with your argument.
 
  what i'm saying is: marilyn is dead, let's take some genetic materials from her corpse, and make a 90% clone of her.
  also, correct the 10% that weren't already perfect.
so it won't be the real marilyn, that's true, but it may be something really close, or even better.
 
  i'm not asking that apollo-team does this.
  this is beyond the scope of this project, i understand that.
  it was more like a general thinking about the amiga situation, compared to the competitors and what they did to solve the same problem they _all_ had at some point. the amiga situation about dilemma between evolution and backward compatibility is not unique.
  they all solved it.


Kyle Blake

Posts 42
12 Nov 2019 09:35


AmigaOS was designed the way it was for a reason, to achieve certain things and not to do others. What you're asking for is violation of the founding concepts, and it goes against what people use it for. It's like demanding a screwdriver become a lathe.
 
  If we wanted some multi-user security system we already have linux. AmigaOS is an alternative concept, a different way. Not worse, different. For different things. The 68K hacker playground vs MS Office PC.
 
Worse is you don't say anything new. It's a boring conversion to hear every year since 1994. Hearing constant parade of armchair engineers say they know what should happen than real engineers. If you're so smart do it yourself.


Nicolas Sipieter
(Needs Verification)
Posts 115/ 1
12 Nov 2019 10:00


why all other oses did it then?
why did they allocate money and substantial time to make their oses do the jump to become smp and mp enabled ?
why did they bother ?
why didn't they also used your argument ?

"xxxxxx was designed the way it was for a reason, to achieve certain things and not to do others."

they could have said: "yes, well, our os wasn't designed to handle mp and smp, so forget it.. like you do.. even glorying the weaknesses of their system as strengths.
--> yea, no mp, no smp, it's better that way it's simplier our OSes are better without those.

this is nonsense right ?
they all made the needed modifications. even niche OSes like atari.


Nicolas Sipieter
(Needs Verification)
Posts 115/ 1
12 Nov 2019 10:05


beside i'm not an armchair engineer, claiming to know amiga innards in details.
i'm just saying:
look at what _all_ the other competitors did.
look how it served them well.

nobody will say that win98se is more stable and user experience is better than windowsxp right ?
all macos classic users will agree too current macos is more stable too.




Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 4192
12 Nov 2019 10:09


nicolas sipieter wrote:

  beside i'm not an armchair engineer, claiming to know amiga innards in details.
 

 
You have to decide for YOURSELF what you want.
 
a) AMIGA OS - then accept it as it is.
With real AMIGA OS some small improvements can be done .. step by step. But no Miracles.
 
b) You want a complete different OS like LINUX with just the "GUI" look of AMIGA OS. If this is what you want then you are wrong here in this forum.
 


Nicolas Sipieter
(Needs Verification)
Posts 115/ 1
12 Nov 2019 10:17


@gunnar

c) you want amiga-like-OSes to start experimenting with an optional smp & mp kernel.


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 1430
12 Nov 2019 10:23


AROS and MOS stand chances in your likings.

Won't be now for sure.

Smp - no m68k is multicore

Mem protect - sandboxing

Multiuser is doable


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 4192
12 Nov 2019 10:27


Vojin Vidanovic wrote:

AROS and MOS stand chances in your likings.
Smp - no m68k is multicore

If its not 68k then its no AMIGA.




Nicolas Sipieter
(Needs Verification)
Posts 115/ 1
12 Nov 2019 10:30


@vojin, yes i'm especialy hopeful for aros.
i think morphos will do something good too.
but morphos doesn't run on apollo, while aros do.
so my hope is someday multi-core, multi-cpu, memory protected, with resource tracking and unicode support come to some experimental version of aros. so someday we might have also multi-cpu apollo boards too. prepping it all before going full asic.



Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 4192
12 Nov 2019 10:37


nicolas sipieter wrote:

so my hope is someday multi-core, multi-cpu, memory protected, with resource tracking and unicode support come to some experimental version of aros. so someday we might have also multi-cpu apollo boards too. prepping it all before going full asic.

Lets try to get the expectations straight.
- APOLLO 68080 is designed for SMP support.
- But AMIGA OS is not.

Throwing AMIGA OS away and doing a LINUX-clone instead makes no sense - it would completely kill the spirit of the OS.
So don't ask for it.

What you can do is gradually do some small upgrades.
And understand that AROS will NOT give you what you want by itself.




Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 4192
12 Nov 2019 10:38


nicolas sipieter wrote:

so my hope is someday multi-core, multi-cpu, memory protected, with resource tracking and unicode support come to some experimental version of aros. so someday we might have also multi-cpu apollo boards too. prepping it all before going full asic.

Lets try to get the expectations straight.
- APOLLO 68080 is designed for SMP support.
- But AMIGA OS is not.

Throwing AMIGA OS away and doing a LINUX-clone instead makes no sense - it would completely kill the spirit of the OS.
So don't ask for it.

What you can do is gradually do some small upgrades.
And understand that AROS will today NOT give you what you want by itself.

What you think about lies many years in the future -asking for it now is pretty much pointless.



Kyle Blake

Posts 42
12 Nov 2019 10:38


nicolas sipieter wrote:

why all other oses did it then?
  why did they allocate money and substantial time to make their oses do the jump to become smp and mp enabled ?
  why did they bother ?
  why didn't they also used your argument ?
 
 
  "xxxxxx was designed the way it was for a reason, to achieve certain things and not to do others."
 
  they could have said: "yes, well, our os wasn't designed to handle mp and smp, so forget it.. like you do.. even glorying the weaknesses of their system as strengths.
  --> yea, no mp, no smp, it's better that way it's simplier our OSes are better without those.
 
  this is nonsense right ?
  they all made the needed modifications. even niche OSes like atari.

You are standing in a dealership for Yamaha motorcycles, and you are saying "this bike is nice, but to be better you must add 2 more wheels, big armchair seats, a roof and four doors.

what you want is called a car.


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 4192
12 Nov 2019 10:43


Kyle Blake wrote:

You are standing in a dealership for Yamaha motorcycles, and you are saying "this bike is nice, but to be better you must add 2 more wheels, big armchair seats, a roof and four doors.
 
what you want is called a car.

This is a very good example!

I know AMIGA OS concept from coding it.
Therefore is crystal clear to me - that asking for 2 more wheels and 4 doors will "break" the spirit and "break" the design of the motorcycle called AMIGA-OS.

I think if people never coded AMIGA OS then they can not see this clearly.
And I find it very hard to explain it properly.


Nicolas Sipieter
(Needs Verification)
Posts 115/ 1
12 Nov 2019 10:49


@gunnar
  "What you think about lies many years in the future -asking for it now is pretty much pointless."
 
  correct. and, i'm not asking for it now. i'm not even asking for it at all.
 
  all i do is talking about general direction for the future.
i mean, if experimenting would starts now the usable result would be in a fews years (4-5 maybe ?)


Nicolas Sipieter
(Needs Verification)
Posts 115/ 1
12 Nov 2019 11:11


all those examples about,
 
  - motorcycle being turned into cars,
  - and humming bird being turned into turtle,
  and such
 
  are not correct, because:
  - win95, and winnt and win98se and windowsxp they all are windows, with windows-y user experience, things and concepts are the same, a windows user finds it is roughly, all in all the same user experience.. it's windows.
 
  - microsoft did have win98 there was no mp, and it was crashy
  - microsoft did winnt, there was mp and it was stable, but no compatibility with win98.
  - so microsoft did winxp, which is winnt, with win98 compatibility layer.
 
  so they did it in steps.
 
  but anyway my point is while windows was undertaking significant changes and overhaul, noone at microsoft suddenly stood up and said:
  hey! we changed things, *this* is no more a real "windows", we changed things, that's crazy, omg what have we done ?!....
 
  after some denial time, struggling to acknowledge their product sucked, they finally got their shit together and talked:
  - our system sucks, why ?
  - stability issues.
  - oh.. ok, we need to do something about it.
  - let's modify the way it work.
  - ok
 
 


Nixus Minimax

Posts 342
12 Nov 2019 11:18


nicolas sipieter wrote:

why all other oses did it then?

Because they had a market and hence the resources to do it. If there were an economically sound Amiga software market, a new OS with new features would get support from the software developers who would adapt their code to the new OS. The last time there was a sound Amiga software market was ~30 years ago.



Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 4192
12 Nov 2019 11:36


nicolas sipieter wrote:

  all those examples about,
   
    - motorcycle being turned into cars,
    - and humming bird being turned into turtle,
    and such
   
    are not correct,
   

 
The examples are 100% correct.
The examples try to explain in "picturish" way that Memory-Protection will do to AMIGA OS.
It will do 2 things a) adding something - and b) take something away from AMIGA.
This "taking away" will effective make AMIGA OS not be AMIGA OS anymore.

 
I believe you can NOT see or understand this easily
if you not understand what AMIGA OS is and never coded for it.
I think you need to learn programming and get some experience on coding for AMIGA OS.
Only then you will understand what we try to explain you.
 

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