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Apollo Vamp V4 Mmu Bounty - How To?page  1 2 3 4 

Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 1422
22 Oct 2019 15:53


Take only AmigaOS and Linux 68k compatibility path.
 
  I dont know why I believe that having MMU would raise 030+ compatibility and compatibility even to TT/Mac/anything beyond 020.
 
  Havent really used VMEM on Amiga, so I dont know how was it implemented. I remember ImageFX and few progs could create page file in a file. I agree too much paging kills hard drive, but AmigaOS is efficient and Vamps have enough mem, so this is really not necessary. I just would not like those programs to crash.


Wawa T

Posts 617
22 Oct 2019 16:03


i actually have tried to use vmem on amiga for image processing, animation playback and 3d graphics since i have came to the limits of physical ram in the nineties pretty frequently. and i tell you that it wasnt working satisfactory. it lagged much more than on actually by default vmvm enabled systems like win or mac.i dont believe it is a killer feature worth talking about right now.


Uros Vidovic

Posts 30
23 Oct 2019 08:44


Gunnar von Boehn wrote:

  Also for ATARI is not the MMU what is missing for classic ATARI software.
  I find your post misleading of users.

As one of the Atari users (I talk only for myself) I wont buy Vampire if I am not able to run MiNT with MMU enabled. You can have 1GHz or 2GHz Apollo core without MMU I am not interested in it. I dont use ST (who does except musicians) for production software and I dont use my Atari (clones) to play games. Why would I use Vampire to play games optimised to be playable on the ST and potentialy break compatibility for the most of them?!?


Steve Ferrell

Posts 378
23 Oct 2019 17:36


Uros Vidovic wrote:

 
Gunnar von Boehn wrote:

    Also for ATARI is not the MMU what is missing for classic ATARI software.
    I find your post misleading of users.
 

 
  As one of the Atari users (I talk only for myself) I wont buy Vampire if I am not able to run MiNT with MMU enabled. You can have 1GHz or 2GHz Apollo core without MMU I am not interested in it. I dont use ST (who does except musicians) for production software and I dont use my Atari (clones) to play games. Why would I use Vampire to play games optimised to be playable on the ST and potentialy break compatibility for the most of them?!?
 

 
The Vampire project is first and foremost an Amiga project.  It has always been an Amiga project and being able to run Atari TOS or MiNT wasn't even one of the original design goals, nor was the Vampire ever declared to be the best way to run TOS, MiNT or any other non-Amiga operating system.  So why are you here crying about the Vampire not being suitable for running MiNT?  That's like crying about the Xbox not being able to play PS4 games.  The Vampire team is going to focus on their customer base who happen to be Amigans who are looking to run AmigaOS.  Maybe someone from the Atari community should get involved and contact Gunnar and provide some assistance in getting MMU-enabled MiNT running on the Vampire instead of just showing up here and whining about it.


Roger Andre Lassen

Posts 79
23 Oct 2019 17:44


For once, i´m totally onboard with Mr. Ferrell.



Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 1422
23 Oct 2019 18:08


Steve Ferrell wrote:

 
    The Vampire project is first and foremost an Amiga project.  It has always been an Amiga project and being able to run Atari TOS or MiNT wasn't even one of the original design goals, nor was
 

 
  True. But also while 080 has most complete m68k instruction set, it is only post 020 CPU not to feature MMU, thus somewhat "EC".
 
  Side effect is good: with small adaptations there is a chance Vamp could run Atari and m68k Mac more natively (-fast) and target more then just Amiga market.
 
  Linux, as last ditch option, is fastest way to get more software, once 080 gets to higher clocks.
 
  And last, Gunnar proposed bounty as way to bring MMU.
 
  In the end, V4 core is priority, V1200 and SA mass production, then GOLD3 for V2. This means MMU wont be on table quite long.
 
  So real Q is: Will it be?
 
  Outside aid would be great, like 080 PMMU enabled Linux kernel. But more info would be needed. And why not other way around? Sending SA and documentation to Linus, Debian, Atari MINT team ...?
 


Steve Ferrell

Posts 378
23 Oct 2019 18:43


Vojin Vidanovic wrote:

 
Steve Ferrell wrote:

 
    The Vampire project is first and foremost an Amiga project.  It has always been an Amiga project and being able to run Atari TOS or MiNT wasn't even one of the original design goals, nor was
 

 
  True. But also while 080 has most complete m68k instruction set, it is only post 020 CPU not to feature MMU, thus somewhat "EC".
 
  Side effect is good: with small adaptations there is a chance Vamp could run Atari and m68k Mac more natively (-fast) and target more then just Amiga market.
 
  Linux, as last ditch option, is fastest way to get more software, once 080 gets to higher clocks.
 
  Outside aid would be great, like 080 PMMU enabled Linux kernel. But more info would be needed.
 
 

 
This ground has been covered many times before by Gunnar and several others.  Attempting to run Linux on the Vampire is going to be horrifically slow with or without an MMU so why do you keep bringing this up?  The Vampire has as much horsepower as a 200Mhz Pentium which can't even handle a modern web browser, let alone a modern or near-modern version of Linux running a GUI and GUI-enabled apps. A Vampire should be the last option for running Linux after all other available hardware options are exhausted.
 
Vojin Vidanovic wrote:
  Linux, as last ditch option, is fastest way to get more software, once 080 gets to higher clocks.

 
Porting Linux to the Vampire isn't going to bring any more 68K AmigaOS software to the Vampire.  If you want to run Linux on a hobby board, buy a $45 Raspberry Pi board and be done with it. 
 
As for running 68K MacOS on the Vampire, who really cares?  There are much better and cheaper solutions for that such as the Mini vMac project which will run circles around a Vampire that is running a Mac emulator:  EXTERNAL LINK 
And of course more info would be needed to access the MMU in the Vampire.  Gunnar has stated that several times so why does it need repeating here?
 
You seem to be not only obsessed with the Vampire, but obsessed with turning it into a Frankenstein project that will emulate every other operating system under the sun.  The Vampire does one thing extremely well, which is run classic AmigaOS.  Turning it into a Frankenstein's monster of emulation will result it in emulating no operating system very well.


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 1422
23 Oct 2019 18:56


Steve Ferrell wrote:

    You seem to be not only obsessed with the Vampire, but obsessed with turning it into a Frankenstein project that will emulate every other operating system under the sun.  The Vampire does one thing extremely well, which is run classic AmigaOS.  Turning it into a Frankenstein's monster of emulation will result it in emulating no operating system very well.
 

 
  OK, I leave it alone. As EC CPU. Idea is not that mine - it came by seeing "Amitari" - EmuTOS + FreeMINT success.

  No one cares for Atari, Linux and MacOS software library? I do. Its good. Its way better then anything on AmigaOS. It can complement AmigaOS software library and enable creativity.
 
  Vamp will face same barrier as OS4: Old OS3 library and limited developer base. Any additional way is good.
 


Roy Gillotti

Posts 350
23 Oct 2019 19:02


Honestly feel that there should be more of a bounty or Patreon headed to help Bebbo work on his 68080 optimized gcc compiler and maybe get together a comprehensive package for a Vampire software development kit.


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 1422
23 Oct 2019 19:04


Roy Gillotti wrote:

  Honestly feel that there should be more of a bounty or Patreon headed to help Bebbo work on his 68080 optimized gcc compiler and maybe get together a comprehensive package for a Vampire software development kit.
 

 
  Surely, GCC 080 would be most beneficial. Later on, it can enable optimized Linux ports too :)
 
  I am sure enabling more development is priority for new development.
 
  Accessing as much of old sw library could be next, or close to it.
 
  Linux is faster on XYZ is nonsense argument. Unlike Windows, one can scale Linux distro and generation of apps to suit 100Mhz CPU with 500MB RAM. Why not using Linux, or sandboxing in hardbox Lin app, instead of porting it with all dependencies and fixing it - and again that is how "new" AOS apps will come to be?


Steve Ferrell

Posts 378
23 Oct 2019 19:34


Vojin Vidanovic wrote:

   
  Its good. Its way better then anything on AmigaOS.
   
   

If that's how you feel then maybe you should hang out more on the Atari forums or on Mac and Linux forums?  Last time I checked, this forum was about running 68K AmigaOS or AROS 68K on an FPGA board, not TOS, not MiNT and certainly not Linux.

And instead of complaining about what operating systems the Vampire DOESN'T run, why not help improving the two that it WAS designed to run?  Like lending some coding skills toward improving AROS or OS 3.1?  And if you don't have any coding skills then why not put some cash toward helping those who do have coding skills.  The only way to bring more software to the Vampire is to provide an incentive for programmers and to provide them with the proper tools....that means a decent compiler/dev environment and some cash or other incentive(s). 


Roy Gillotti

Posts 350
23 Oct 2019 19:51


I like this project because it's not Linux, I have other devices for my Linux needs.


Steve Ferrell

Posts 378
23 Oct 2019 20:03


Vojin Vidanovic wrote:

 
  Linux is faster on XYZ is nonsense argument. Unlike Windows, one can scale Linux distro and generation of apps to suit 100Mhz CPU with 500MB RAM. Why not using Linux, or sandboxing in hardbox Lin app, instead of porting it with all dependencies and fixing it - and again that is how "new" AOS apps will come to be?
 

 
Are you living in some sort of bizarre fantasy world?  Even if one was able to scale back a yet-to-be-named Linux kernel to run on 500MB of RAM using a 100Mhz CPU, who is going to "scale back" as you call it, the generation of apps that would run on such a kernel?  What functionality would you propose to strip out of those apps in order to get them to run at an acceptable speed?  Remove the GUI?
 
A 100Mhz CPU isn't going to run ANY *nix kernel at a reasonable speed, let alone one that supports a GUI desktop and GUI apps.  If that were the case, classic Amiga users would have transitioned to Amix years ago and stayed there, but they didn't.  Amix was, and is a dog which is why no one uses it today.  Even it would be a better choice for running on the Vampire as opposed to any modern stripped-down Linux kernel.
 
You seem to have the cart before the horse.  Programmers/developers create apps, not operating systems, unless you've suddenly discovered an OS that writes its own apps.  I don't know of a single Linux programmer/developer who is suddenly going to write Amiga apps if the Vampire ran Linux.  This isn't like the movie, "Field of Dreams", where if you build it they will come.  This is the real world and the only way programmers and developers will create new software is when there's an incentive for them to do so....the primary incentive being cash.
 
 
 


Olivier Landemarre

Posts 61
25 Oct 2019 18:01


Uros Vidovic wrote:

Gunnar von Boehn wrote:

  Also for ATARI is not the MMU what is missing for classic ATARI software.
  I find your post misleading of users.
 

 
  As one of the Atari users (I talk only for myself) I wont buy Vampire if I am not able to run MiNT with MMU enabled. You can have 1GHz or 2GHz Apollo core without MMU I am not interested in it. I dont use ST (who does except musicians) for production software and I dont use my Atari (clones) to play games. Why would I use Vampire to play games optimised to be playable on the ST and potentialy break compatibility for the most of them?!?

I don't know what you are doing with Mint but the only interest I see to have MMU is for developper to fix code, because for me Mint MMU for user is not usefull as it is very easy to crash Mint with it, crash while without you can run software without issue most of time when application install interrupt vector. Looks stupid but it is the case.

Olivier



Olaf Schoenweiss

Posts 515
25 Oct 2019 18:14


I agree Linux on Vampire would make no sense

For that there are cheaper and better hardware available

The whole discussion about MMU was because some said they would need a compatible MMU for development. On the other hand I doubt that these people would really do something vampire-specific if there would be a compatible MMU. To me it sounds like searching for reason for moaning. Some time ago FPU was the big topic, when there was one MMU is the big obstacle...

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