Overview Features Instructions Performance Forum Downloads Products Reseller Contact

Welcome to the Apollo Forum

This forum is for people interested in the APOLLO CPU.
Please read the forum usage manual.
VISIT APOLLO IRC CHANNEL



All TopicsNewsPerformanceGamesDemosApolloVampireCoffinReleasesLogin
Information about the Apollo CPU and FPU.

UcLinux (hope for Linux On Vamps)page  1 2 

Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 1429
01 Sep 2019 10:06



  uClinux is MMULess m68k distro that could work on Vamp
    Its built for low end and SOCC

μClinux was originally created by D. Jeff Dionne and Kenneth Albanowski in 1998. Initially, they targeted the Motorola DragonBall family of embedded 68k processors (specifically the 68EZ328 series used in the Motorola PalmPilot) on a 2.0.33 Linux kernel. After releasing their initial work, a developer community quickly sprang up extending their work to newer kernels and other microprocessor architectures. In early 1999, support was added for the Motorola (now Freescale) ColdFire family of embedded microprocessors. ARM processor support was added later.

Although originally targeting 2.0 series Linux kernels, it now has ports based on Linux 2.4 and Linux 2.6. The Linux 2.4 ports were forward ported from the 2.0.36 Linux kernel by Michael Leslie and Evan Stawnyczy during their work at Rt-Control. There were never any μClinux extensions applied to the 2.2 series kernels.

Since version 2.5.46 of the Linux kernel, the major parts of μClinux have been integrated with the mainline kernel for a number of processor architectures. Greg Ungerer (who originally ported μClinux to the Motorola ColdFire family of processors) continues to maintain and actively push core μClinux support into the 2.6 series Linux kernels. In this regard, μClinux is essentially no longer a separate fork of Linux.

The project continues to develop patches and supporting tools for using Linux on microcontrollers. μClinux has support for many architectures, and forms the basis of many products, like network routers, security cameras, DVD or MP3 players, VoIP phone or gateways, scanners, and card readers.

  wiki
EXTERNAL LINK 
  SourceForge
  EXTERNAL LINK    GitHub
  EXTERNAL LINK   
  2014 guide
  EXTERNAL LINK   
  Discussion
  EXTERNAL LINK  EXTERNAL LINK


Markus B

Posts 108
01 Sep 2019 16:17


Not very interesting.


Mike Kopack

Posts 258
01 Sep 2019 16:31


Bigger question is WHY??

If you want a Linux machine just get a RasPi or cheap intel box.  What would be the reason for running Linux on the Vampire? What would be the point? Linux on an Amiga is just Linux (slowly).


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 1429
01 Sep 2019 17:01


Everything is a Linux machine, so yes, I have one in hand (Android) and two on table (x64 and A1-x1000) and see no reason why Vamp should not be the one too.
 
  Will try when v4 SA arrives, and report back the results (video post if ucLinux is made usable).
 
  Why?
 
    finally, since Deb 3, m68k has enough horsepower (or better to say, with 100Mhz+ 080 development will have it).
    Also its free in sw price, mind a bit of "back to console" and "Linux learning curve" which is healthy for a soul.
   
    Based on my few years with A1-x1000, only way to make Amiga usable again, until we have software eco system again (which I hope for Vampire to do better job then A1s), Linux FLOSS apps are only way to make machine to have a modern use.
   
    Also, FLOSS apps avail under Linux are de facto free standard of today. So yes I want to use LibreOffice, even 2.x,3.x if not current 6.x, also GIMP,VLC etc. to level of machines ability.
    One can pay for Pshop, MS Office and video player, but one might also get 2-3x better hw for difference. So, FLOSS software bears many fruits.
   
    Best would be FLOSS backports, but to many Linux dependencies, so in the end its easier to dualboot.
   
    Or a Linux m68k virtual box, but fast one, like Fusion emulation.
   
    Having m68k as supported Linux arch is sign m68k is alive to the world, much more then AOS 3.x+ development.
   
    In years, I have grown to be fond of Linux anywhere anytime.

  on Amiga side: even if browser dilemma is solved, equally hard office one remains. Dual boot to Linux at least helps.


Uros Vidovic

Posts 30
01 Sep 2019 17:33


Mike Kopack wrote:

Bigger question is WHY??
 
  If you want a Linux machine just get a RasPi or cheap intel box.  What would be the reason for running Linux on the Vampire? What would be the point? Linux on an Amiga is just Linux (slowly).

Why then even port the games on Amiga if you have all of them running on RasPi even smother?!?


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 1429
01 Sep 2019 17:57


Linux is not one, and is extremely versatile. You can have miss mushes like a newer kernel + lightweight GUI + modern app.
 
  While MATE is verrry nice but bloadeted GUI, - there are less demanding GUIs like XFCE and LXDE and more shiny like KDE.
 
  My goal is ucLinux + LXDE + few nice apps
  Or ucLinux kernel + Deb9 if possible, on XFCE/LXDE
 
      Lightweight, runs with reasonable memory usage
      Fast, rund well even on older machines produced in 1999
      Good-looking, gtk+ 2 internationalized user interface
      Easy-to-use, the user interface is simple, but usable enough
      Desktop independent (suprise! Every component can be used without LXDE)
      Standard compliant, follows the specs on freedesktop.org
      Suitable for old machines
 
 
  LXDE "system requirements"
 
  CPU  RAM  Hard Disk  Speed
  Pentium II 266 MHz  192 MB  5400 rpm  moderate - fast
  VIA 400 MHz  256 MB  5400 rpm  moderate - fast
  Pentium III 600 MHz  512 MB  4500 rpm  fast
  QEMU emulation on AMD Athlon 1.6 (1.4 GHz)  128 MB  QEMU disk image  fast
  AMD Athlon 1.6 (1.4 GHz)  512 MB  7200 rpm  very fast
 
  Showcase: slow deb9 but modern kernel boot on Amiga 600 030
EXTERNAL LINK


M Rickan

Posts 170
01 Sep 2019 18:14


Uros Vidovic wrote:

  Why then even port the games on Amiga if you have all of them running on RasPi even smother?!?

The faster, cheaper, better argument against the appeal of the Amiga has applied for years. It misses the point entirely.

Why stifle initiative if there is enough interest to warrant the effort?


Uros Vidovic

Posts 30
01 Sep 2019 18:23


m rickan wrote:

  Why stifle initiative if there is enough interest to warrant the effort?

Exactly my point!


J.M. Lapilainen

Posts 13
01 Sep 2019 18:41


Maybe year (or is it two already?) ago I took a quick look at all this. Mainline needs some work, IIRC support for anything more recent than 68000 needs to be added to uclinux side of kernel. I built kernel for 68000, I suppose it should boot with Vampire but amiboot bugs out with V2+, cpu detection if memory serves, and also needs some work to make it build with recent compilers. I started looking into it but stopped because lack of time.
 
Anyway, uclinux is cool and all but has its own problems. I'd rather see backwards compatible MMU in Vamp (or similar functionality that could be supported in Linux kernel). I don't really want to get further into that discussion as I think most who have had critique about the lack of compatible MMU in Vampire has been accused of being a troll and/or banned. I'll just say I ran NetBSD on my Amiga back in the day.
 
Edit: I don't want to sound discouraging, but having uclinux running with Vampire is still lightyears away from having a modern browser or anything like that as they are just too fat and resource heavy. Try Firefox or Chromium on a Pentium 4 with a GPU that have no DRI support and it'll choke on Google frontpage. My personal opinion is, that netsurf is already all you need, be it Amiga or a retro PC as most people have a working modern browser in their pocket nowadays. I see the point in having Linux running on Vampire and I'll probably return to that subject some day, but I see very little point in having such bloated stuff like Linux DE's, mainstream browsers, office suites or the red hat crap that comes with mainstream distros these days, eating the Vampire alive.


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 1429
01 Sep 2019 19:45


Yes, I have seen software rendering FF even on dual core PA Semi.
Its slow. It hurts a bit :)
 
  I agree m68k MMU would make instant Debian 10 boot, but simply cannot influence the plan, hence, uclinux is currently viable. ANd best of what its latest Kernel could support.
 
  Target for experiment will be v4sa because of 100Mhz and 512MB RAM and I ll report whats doable :) Hope some Libre 3.x could run.
 
  Best would be small and efficient distro, like PPC chaps ended with (some Phienix http://amigaonthelake.com/fienix-linux-distro-for-amigaone-64-bit-powerpc-systems/#description) just much more lighweight and with a bit oudated apps, to match both what current Vamps could do and to reflect of lack m68k Linux development (due to lack of hw! mostly).
 
  In the end I see it as better stress test then booting best of what AmigaOS 3.x can offer :) Plus might hopefully add if not browser, at least Libre Writter, Scribus and GIMP of some version.


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 4185
02 Sep 2019 06:36


Vojin Vidanovic wrote:

I agree m68k MMU would make instant Debian 10 boot, but simply cannot influence the plan,

Maybe you can.
If you really want Linux how about making a kickstarter to higher prio  MMU emulation.


J.M. Lapilainen

Posts 13
02 Sep 2019 10:00


Gunnar von Boehn wrote:

Vojin Vidanovic wrote:

  I agree m68k MMU would make instant Debian 10 boot, but simply cannot influence the plan,
 

 
  Maybe you can.
  If you really want Linux how about making a kickstarter to higher prio  MMU emulation.

Sounds like a plan to me. Gunnar, is it possible to give a rough estimate about the amount of time/money required to make MMU emulation happen?


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 1429
02 Sep 2019 11:02


Gunnar von Boehn wrote:

      Maybe you can.
      If you really want Linux how about making a kickstarter to higher prio  MMU emulation.
     

     
      While on AmigaOS MMU has few Enforcer/vmem functions,
      its essential if Vamp is to reach:
     
      - Full Atari ST/STE/TT compatibility (maybe Blitter and Yamaha)
      - Full Mac Classic comaptibility with no ShapeShifter (gfx modes?)
      - Full m68k Linux compatibility (just the MMU, supports AGA, one distro supports RTG)
     
      At least 68851 code in v4 would be enough.
     
      I have a Kickstarter and if you provide detailed description, would be more then happy to.
     
      It would be more official if team would do it. Would be first to donate and spread the word.
 
 
J.M. Lapilainen wrote:

    Sounds like a plan to me. Gunnar, is it possible to give a rough estimate about the amount of time/money required to make MMU emulation happen?
 

 
  Yup, also KS is limited in days, so it might go via phases.
  KS1 reward could be beta core 3.x for V4 with MMU support rudimentary, KS2 could be bugfixing etc.
     
 
  As MMU test starter, its seems Deb 3.x exists on Aminet with X11, configured for AGA,RTG testable under UAE.
  EXTERNAL LINK 
  Debian m68k 3.1r8 (Sarge)with X11 form 2.1r5 (Slink) on hdf for WinUAE.
  With ffs boot-partition configured for autoboot. And Debian booting right
  into X11 in DblPal 680x512. The ffs partition contains only amiboot and
  kernel, no Amiga system-files included.
 
  Root password is: root
 
  There is one configured user: user
  With password: pass
 
  The network is configured for a2065 with dhcp (needs WinPCAP) and apt is
  configured for archive.debian.org Slink/main,contrib&non-free.
 
  The hdf is approx 3,5Gig and contains 3 partitions:
  LDH0: approx 512MB FFS boot-drive
  LDH1: approx 2,5Gig e3fs Linux Root
  LDH2: approx 512MB Linux Swap
 
  EAB tip Change controller to IDE0. UAE controller is not supported in Linux as is everything with UAE in its name.


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 4185
02 Sep 2019 14:19


Vojin Vidanovic wrote:

   
        While on AmigaOS MMU has few Enforcer/vmem functions,
        its essential if Vamp is to reach:
       
        - Full Atari ST/STE/TT compatibility (maybe Blitter and Yamaha)
        - Full Mac Classic comaptibility with no ShapeShifter (gfx modes?)
        - Full m68k Linux compatibility (just the MMU, supports AGA, one distro supports RTG)
       
        At least 68851 code in v4 would be enough.
       
 

 
Erm supporting 68851 would not be a logical decision
 
The APOLLO 68080 is like an improved 68040 or improved 68060.
This means behave 100% like 68040 MMU would make sense.
Mind that the 68851 was incompatible to the 68040!

While you listed a number of many different wishes here.
I would propose to have a much more clear defined goal.
 
 


Scott Jacobs

Posts 6
02 Sep 2019 14:26


While I do Indeed support Linux, I have a couple Linux machines including an rpi.  I have to wonder if it would be more effective to simply run an x server on the amiga and simply connect to an existing machine thus having access to that machines applications. Ie, open office, chromium, gimp, at al.

Please this is not a criticism of your efforts by any means, simply a query.


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 1429
02 Sep 2019 14:34


Gunnar von Boehn wrote:

    While you listed a number of many different wishes here.
    I would propose to have a much more clear defined goal.
 

  So two goals only
 
      - m68k 040 mmu compatibile on AOS 3.x side
      - able to boot m68k 030 040 kenels for m68k Linux
 
      040 style mmu fits Vamp better in many ways,     
      including basic ID where 080 is  recognized as 040
      MMUless,should be full 040 with MMU and FPU
      after this goal is        done.
 

      Would be nice if Atari side sees MMU too
     
      I throught older chip Is easier to implement and
    that is compatible enough
     
     
Scott jacobs wrote:

      I have to wonder if it would be more effective to simply run an x server on the amiga and simply connect to an existing machine thus having access to that machines applications. Ie, open office, chromium, gimp, at al.
     
      Please this is not a criticism of your efforts by any means, simply a query.
   

   
    x11 server exists for m68k, and LAN connection via router and TwinVNC like solution, or more advanced "amiKit X" rabbit hole, alike would be most welcome.
     
     


Carlos Milán

Posts 51
10 Sep 2019 22:12


MMU-less support was introduced in the mainstream Linux kernel, so you don't depend on uClinux anymore. You have to compile the kernel with MMU support set to no inside config MMU.

However... Do not get you hopes up, the scenario is the same as it was with uClinux: disabling MMU is targeted at embedded devices that will run very few specific programs. Most of the Linux applications simply won't work. I don't consider Amiga an embedded device with limited application support :)

More info here: EXTERNAL LINK 
I think Linux supported MMU in Apollo Core would be so cool! We could run GNU/Linux and NetBSD.

However and regardless of this, the Vampire is already the most amazing Amiga piece of hardware I have ever owned :)


Scott Jacobs

Posts 6
11 Sep 2019 03:27


As I stated before, linux would be nice with its extensive library of software.  However,you could easily run an x server on the Amiga side and connect to, say a Raspberry Pi, and run a modern web browser, or open office and various other applications without necessarily having to port to the Amiga/Vampire.



Hans-Georg Winkler

Posts 26
11 Sep 2019 08:48


If the network connection over SSH is fast enough? ;-) I don't know the performance of the Zorro Network Cards but when I see the poor performance of my network adapter connected to the vampire I am not sure that will work well. It's enough for a console and to copy  small files to the Amiga but I guess it's not enough to have remote desktop application running on the amiga.


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 1429
11 Sep 2019 17:44


Carlos Milán wrote:

MMU-less support was introduced in the mainstream Linux kernel, so you don't depend on uClinux anymore. You have to compile the kernel with MMU support set to no inside config MMU.
  Vampire is already the most amazing Amiga piece of hardware I have ever owned :)

Agreed, a 080 MMU Less AMMX kernel would be best, but until ucLinux kernel is exactly that. I wonder what Debian it could boot(or not?)

080 is not yet mighty enough for Linux, but is not far off.


posts 30page  1 2