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Information about the Apollo CPU and FPU.

Debian 10 M68k (MMU Required, Not Yet for Vamps!)page  1 2 

Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 1423
31 Oct 2019 08:46


Gerardo González-Trejo wrote:

  I work with Linux all day, on servers, desktop... And if I want to have fun I turn on my Amiga not to run Linux on it :)

I also love the retro, but why NOT having Linux on it? It was built to be everywhere.

MMU is not needed in Amiga, but in reality, it is part of any advanced m68k design and or/modern CPU.

Opening docs on ApolloMMU (aka PMMU) or building a Linux kernel that supports it is good enough solution that would not require much fuss on "MMU direction". Same goes to patching Enforcer or few Classic apps. Doing nothing about it is no progress.



Gerardo González-Trejo

Posts 26
31 Oct 2019 10:14


Hi Vojin!

First of all, I understand your point of view and I can be more or less agree with you, but Ím sure just now team´s resources and time are so limited.

Adding Linux support at this time would be an effort with not so good results compared to X86 or ARM systems. I mean... Core is running on an FPGA, nor GHZ frequencies not fast interfaces like SATA, Gigabit ethernet, etc... here yet).

On the other way, supporting smaller alternative kernels or OSes here would be much better (Minix, Haiku...), but again, tools and compilers needed...

I am not a big “fan” of GCC here, but till team and developers do not have an optimised compiler (this “messy” GCC or other), talking about other OSes is just a loose of energy at this moment and extra pressure for the team.

Hope you get my point.


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 1423
31 Oct 2019 10:21


Gerardo González-Trejo wrote:

  Hi Vojin!
 
  First of all, I understand your point of view and I can be more or less agree with you, but Ím sure just now team´s resources and time are so limited.
 

 
  I agree current priorities are ironing V4 core, releasing GOLD3 for v2 and letting SA and V1200 mass produce.
 
  But this is important foundation for the future (e.g. V6 model might be CPU powerful enough etc. and its better to have some foundation before). And in lack of high end Amiga productivity apps, Linux apps can save the day. Its easier to crosscompile and run them then to fully backport to AmigaOS.
 
  And many of OS4 and newer OS3, AROS ... apps and enhancements do come from Linux/FLOSS camp. So, negativity either is sad and a bit mad.

Haiku is nice BeOS kind of branch, I see Sylabille EXTERNAL LINK has gone a bit further in usability. Is it closer to what Amigans wish?

I am no kernel or OS expert, I just like that Linux can go everyhere, can be customized to anyones needs and does the job using less resources then more bloted OSs - does more or faster on same hw. And this reminds me a bit of my AmigaOS likes.
 


Markus B

Posts 100
31 Oct 2019 10:21


Vojin, Linux on Amiga was never really a thing. Your illusion to bring modern applications this way to a Amiga is simply bullshit, to be honest.

If someone is willing to enhance the kernel to support the MMU in the AC68080, he should do so. But from perspective the team should not bind any resources in this topic.


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 1423
31 Oct 2019 10:25


Markus B wrote:

      Vojin, Linux on Amiga was never really a thing. Your illusion to bring modern applications this way to a Amiga is simply bullshit, to be honest.
     

     
      Because PPC Amiga Classic died quick and m68k support was officially dropped within few years.On A1s AEON did not care enough to provide mainstream distro support, but hacking via "AmigaOne Linux team", so in the end only PPC Mac and IBM POWER support remained official.

No one cared enough so Linux could be useful on Amiga.  But, ask Peg, A1, MacPPC users how Linux brought more life and proven hardware is great and usable, even in 2019.
     
      Tell me the other way to bring more modern apps. Netsurf is also a FLOSS app as an example.
 
  No one is binding any resources, team has other priorities now. Maybe someone from Linux community could do the job if he had Vamp, motivation and documented ApolloMMU. Nothing happens by magic. Similar situation is with AROS, just in other way.


Gerardo González-Trejo

Posts 26
31 Oct 2019 10:36


Vojin Vidanovic wrote:

I am no kernel or OS expert, I just like that Linux can go everyhere, can be customized to anyones needs and does the job using less resources then more bloted OSs - does more or faster on same hw.
 

Linux nowadays is as bloated as any other big OS. Porting it to V2 or V4 would not get more sales or beneficts to users.


Marlon Beijer

Posts 152
31 Oct 2019 10:45


Gerardo González-Trejo wrote:

Vojin Vidanovic wrote:

 
  I am no kernel or OS expert, I just like that Linux can go everyhere, can be customized to anyones needs and does the job using less resources then more bloted OSs - does more or faster on same hw.
   
 

 
  Linux nowadays is as bloated as any other big OS. Porting it to V2 or V4 would not get more sales or beneficts to users.

It's the distros that are bloated. You can strip down a Linux kernel to the bare essentials and it will be pretty small. Then it's about which software you pick. There are still apps and desktops designed for low end systems. So no Linux is not bloated


Gerardo González-Trejo

Posts 26
31 Oct 2019 10:57


Marlon Beijer wrote:

  It´s the distros that are bloated. You can strip down a Linux kernel to the bare essentials and it will be pretty small. Then it's about which software you pick. There are still apps and desktops designed for low end systems. So no Linux is not bloated
 

 
  Marlon, please check updated info about linux kernel size here on 2019. You will see that statement is not true anymore. That was true more than 20 years ago... How many dozen of millions of lines of code means “pretty small”?
 
  I think it is important we understand it evolved and just now is huge...


Nicolas Sipieter
(Needs Verification)
Posts 115/ 1
31 Oct 2019 11:10


a linux desktop using those apps listed below should run well on apollo-core, and it would be nice to see this project getting to represent the whole 68k family, because right now there's not much 68k hardware around available, i mean they are all old, and people are talking about removing 68k support from their work (gcc compiler and  also distros dropping support for old unused archs).
it would be nice if this project could help the 68k in general to Not being considered as a thing of the past "noone use anymore". new things are happening in the 68k world and apollo-core might represent just that.
so having linux running would prove them maintainer that this hardware branch is not dead there's users and new things happening and so it doesn't need to be removed from the source tree.

list of lightweight apps,
for running a fast linux desktop on slower hardware:

desktop: i3
browser: netsurf or links
file manager: mc, ranger, lf
pic viewer: sxiv
irc: irssi
calendar: calcurse
text editor/dev: vim
video/music: mpv
rss: newsboat

if packaged as a distro, this would be quite small and not bloated.
something like 50mb or so should be doable.


Gerardo González-Trejo

Posts 26
31 Oct 2019 11:46


Guys, please run CLOC on any Git you want to port/run (Linux, Aros, Minix...) on Vampire V2 or V4. You will get the lines of code each of those project have.

Ok, let´s avoid all Code related to drivers, docs, etc... Still how many lines you have?

Taking in mind <1000 lines means it is a simple project and >100000 lines means it is a very large and complex project. Where is Linux situated then?

Ok, let´s recompile Linux, optimize a bit... Which is the real benefict of porting it to V2 or V4, running on FPGA?

Still I could understand porting MINIX, but not Linux, frankly.


Nicolas Sipieter
(Needs Verification)
Posts 115/ 1
31 Oct 2019 11:49


@gerardo
it's not a 'port' ..  68k distros already exists.


Gerardo González-Trejo

Posts 26
31 Oct 2019 12:23


nicolas sipieter wrote:

  @gerardo
  it's not a 'port' ..  68k distros already exists.
 

 
  Nicolas, I don´t remember where I posted  that 68K distros do not exist, maybe because I never wrote or posted that.
 
  Anyway I am listing there several OSes and I specify “run/port”, and if you want to run on a new arquitecture and, on some way, 68080, SAGA or any other new “enhacements” are, then you have to “port”, “write new code”, “enhace”, “optimize”... whatever you want to name it.
 
  Still I would like to read a good argument showing which is the real benefict of using Linux on V2 or V4.

I am not a native english speaker, to not to offend sensitivities ;)
 
 


Carlos Milán

Posts 51
31 Oct 2019 14:10


I really love Linux, but I agree that getting 040 MMU into Apollo Core may be a not very productive overhead for the devs and a serious usage of FPGA's LE.
 
  Instead, implementing the code needed for making the Linux kernel compatible with already present Apollo Core MMU should be the way to go... if that's possible. The main stopper for this is the lack of documentation of that MMU.
 
  Do not forget also that only stock Amiga hardware is supported out of the box in Linux and even x86 PCMCIA drivers are not reusable in m68k.


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 1423
31 Oct 2019 14:58


nicolas sipieter wrote:

     
        it would be nice if this project could help the 68k in general to Not being considered as a thing of the past "noone use anymore". new things are happening in the 68k world and apollo-core might represent just that.
        so having linux running would prove them maintainer that this hardware branch is not dead there's users and new things happening and so it doesn't need to be removed from the source tree.
     
      Do not forget also that only stock Amiga hardware is supported out of the box in Linux a
     

     
      Exactly! Better HelloWorld does NOT exist!
     
      Old APUS and Deb 3.xx can be found on Aminet with more specific old Amiga drv

  Yes, because Amiga and Linux love did not least long, drivers are under developed. Right point.
 
    m68k installing 
    EXTERNAL LINK   
  Aminet other OS incl Deb 3 and Deb9
  EXTERNAL LINK

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