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Information about the Apollo CPU and FPU.

Core 2.X With New Pamela Audio?page  1 2 

Hans-Georg Winkler

Posts 26
21 Aug 2019 08:26


Hi there,
   
    is it possible to release a 2.X Core with Pamela Audio? from my side I do not need full FPU or AGA in the Core but I love the Amiga sound and would like to use the Pamela Sound with EaglePlayer ;-)
   
    I know there is a V3.alpha Core with the new Sound capabilities but there is no RTG. So for me it is not usable because I like to have the Workbench with higher resolution. I am not sure we will see a full Core V3 with AGA/RTG for Vampire V2 in the future (because of the limited space?). But in the end a V2 with RTG and Pamela Audio plus the Power of the 68080 would be great! :-)
 
    Other option maybe to save space is a version without FPU but with  ECS/RTG plus Pamela Audio? With that, V2 users could use the Amiga on a modern Display without a Scandoubler/Flickerfixer installed :-) But I am not sure how complicated it is to backport the OCS/ECS and Pamela to 2.X
   
    HG.


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 1423
21 Aug 2019 10:34


This is not official stance:

v2 users, due to FPGA core limits WILL HAVE TO MAKE A CHOICE:

a) 2.xx core with FPU,RTG, using onboard chipset
b) 3.xx core modified to SAGA only incl. 16-bit audio.

2.xx users however, still have 14-bit AHI via Paula, if better sound
is needed.

AHI driver
EXTERNAL LINK 
P96 setup
EXTERNAL LINK 
Note that you need AHI aware software, DbPAL mode on (or DoubleNTSC) or specialized s/w. I believe both Hippo and AmigaAmp can use AHI/14-bit outpout
Example 14-bit CD player, more on aminet
EXTERNAL LINK 



Hans-Georg Winkler

Posts 26
21 Aug 2019 15:06


Thank you for advice :-)

I did that already and it's great to use the good old Paula in 14bit mode. However the choise that you propose is not realy a choise for me because I don't want to loose RTG to have 16bit audio :-/ OK SAGA is not that bad but it is not RTG. In other words, if I want to have 16bit Audio with RTG I need a V4?

I don`t understand why we spend precious space for the FPU? A FPU is nice but 16Bit Audio is nicer ;-)

Thats in some way not so nice but I have to accept that :-/ So I will stay on 2.X with my onboard Chipset and 14bit Audio....


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 1423
21 Aug 2019 15:18


Hans-Georg Winkler wrote:

  However the choise that you propose is not realy a choise because I don't want to loose RTG to have 16bit audio :-/
    By the way can you tell me which workbench resolutions are possible with SAGA?
 

 
  Its simple FPGA space hardware limit - if you want it all go V4. To be honest, even GOLD3 core backport from v4 is a small miracle. Previous one was squeezing FPU to 2.xx core. Seems people just cant get it enough :) There once was even Vamp 1 and those people cant get AC080 core as beginning - because FPGA is too small.
 
Plus - you can easily reflash by using amigaOS exe flasher. Having some conservative WB in ECS mode for v2.xx and then tuning in to SAGA or RTG could satisfy.

  That is one of reasons why I love V4 - more FPGA space and remains to be seen what it will be used for (now higher clock, more caches, full FPU).
 
  Dont take this as official, SAGA I believe should have true 16/24 bit display in all WB modes that AGA could do.If I remember it correctly that was 1280 x 400 non interlaced and 1280x768 interlaced.
 
  Like AGA but with RTG pallete :)
 


Hans-Georg Winkler

Posts 26
21 Aug 2019 15:25


I was editing my post and did not see your answer ;-)
   
    So as I understand you, to backport Pamela to 2.X is not that easy? I was wondering why not throw out the FPU and use the free space for Pamela. But it seems more complicate as I thought ;-)


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 1423
21 Aug 2019 15:35


Hans-Georg Winkler wrote:
   
      So as I understand you, to backport Pamela to 2.X is not that easy? I was wondering why not throw out the FPU and use the free space for Pamela. But it seems more complicate as I thought ;-)
 

 
  There is NO space or at least very limited space :)
 
  Surely, any answer from Apollo team beats mine.
 
  In GOLD3 beta FPU is already thrown away, so again, little emulation tool has to be used. Or 040 no FPU stuff used.
 
  Edit: I found vague promise that FPU and RTG might be included in final, but its unclear does it refer to v2 or v4.

Seems in the end, you might have your dream, but that is after v4 release and full v2 backport of GOLD 3 + re add of V2 FPU and RTG :)
 
  Source: Amitopia
  EXTERNAL LINK


Niclas A
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 204
21 Aug 2019 15:42


Vojin Vidanovic wrote:

 
Hans-Georg Winkler wrote:
   
      So as I understand you, to backport Pamela to 2.X is not that easy? I was wondering why not throw out the FPU and use the free space for Pamela. But it seems more complicate as I thought ;-)
 

 
  There is NO space or at least very limited space :)
 
  Surely, any answer from Apollo team beats mine.
 
  In GOLD3 beta FPU is already thrown away, so again, little emulation tool has to be used. Or 040 no FPU stuff used.
 
  Edit: I found vague promise that FPU and RTG might be included in final, but its unclear does it refer to v2 or v4
 
  Source: Amitopia
  EXTERNAL LINK 

 
  Do not quote me on this. But I have read on multiple occations  that Gold 3 for Vampire V2 cards will indeed have AGA+RTG but no FPU or some soft FPU variant.
 
  If you want AGA then GOLD 3, if you want FPU then GOLD 2.xx
 
  Dont think I have read anyting other then that. Most rumors are just missunderstandings becuse GOLD 3 alpha did not have RTG. That has also been explained.
 
  So instead of speculation and roumours. Just wait and see :)
  V4 will for sure have all the bells and features. And that is what the team are working hard on right now.

Does NOT mean that V2 cards is left behind. They to will get love after V4 is out.
 
  So breath and chill and wait.
 
 


J.M. Lapilainen

Posts 13
21 Aug 2019 15:53


If, and I mean if since I don't know, SAGA could do 720p in 16/24/32bpp then who would even need RTG at that point. I would much rather have SAGA+FPU for v2 in that case. I would love to hear some official statement regarding how it'll be.


Roy Gillotti

Posts 350
21 Aug 2019 16:08


J.M. Lapilainen wrote:

  If, and I mean if since I don't know, SAGA could do 720p in 16/24/32bpp then who would even need RTG at that point. I would much rather have SAGA+FPU for v2 in that case. I would love to hear some official statement regarding how it'll be.
 

  RTG is how SAGA achieves those resolutions.
 
  AGA is just the traditional graphics that the A1200, 3000 and 4000 could achieve. Gold 3 should eventually allow the SAGA(RTG) graphics and AGA graphics along with OCS/ECS out via the H.D.M.I. output. 

Personally I have no need for AGA outside maybe a game of slam tilt now and then.


J.M. Lapilainen

Posts 13
21 Aug 2019 16:54


Roy Gillotti wrote:

   
J.M. Lapilainen wrote:

    who would even need RTG at that point
     

      RTG is how SAGA achieves those resolutions.
   

   
    Ah, of course, silly me. I guess my brain was after some sort of native hd modes that would magically make saga small enough to fit in. Too bad, switching inputs is kinda inconvenient but I'd rather keep the FPU so no GOLD3 for me.


John William

Posts 453
21 Aug 2019 17:55


Vojin Vidanovic wrote:

  This is not official stance:
   
    v2 users, due to FPGA core limits WILL HAVE TO MAKE A CHOICE:
   
    a) 2.xx core with FPU,RTG, using onboard chipset
    b) 3.xx core modified to SAGA only incl. 16-bit audio.
   
    2.xx users however, still have 14-bit AHI via Paula, if better sound
    is needed.
   
    AHI driver
    EXTERNAL LINK   
    P96 setup
    EXTERNAL LINK   
    Note that you need AHI aware software, DbPAL mode on (or DoubleNTSC) or specialized s/w. I believe both Hippo and AmigaAmp can use AHI/14-bit outpout
    Example 14-bit CD player, more on aminet
    EXTERNAL LINK   
   
 

 
  I PICK TWO! I PICK TWO! I PICK TWO!!!!! IN MY HUMBLE OPINION and that is MY OPINION ONLY don't take it into stone...since it is just an opinion and it is mine....
 
  I am emphasizing on the fact that this opinion is exclusive mine and hence it is my opinion....
 
  MY VAMPIRE 2 (V2) IS BEST STOPPED at Core 2xx, not yours..I am SAYING MY VAMPIRE V2 (V2) WHERE IT IS BEST STOPPED FOR ME AND ONLY ME IS AT CORE 2.xx. This way it fits the narrative of been an accelerator exclusive where it simply upgrades the CPU (much like all the blizzards do), add an RTG video chipset..much like where you own a PC and use one of the PCI slots to add a video card...this V2 is doing the exact same thing here...add IDE port/SD and DIGITAL-VIDEO..where DIGITAL-VIDEO is integrated part of the video card and IDE, FPU and SD are additional hardware you place in a PC where you add extra features to the motherboard...YET KEEP AMIGA CLASSIC INTEGRATED PERSONALITY in tact...where you need the chipset, where you need Paula where it is not just a keyboard been completely taken over by the card.
 
  Now if you need new features...new system such as AGA, Pamela, etc...then you buy a new motherboard...new computer...hence the V4 comes in place.
 
  Again that is exclusively my opinion please do not throw flames here....for me personally and that is all what it is...my V2..not yours..I am saying...MY V2 FOR ME and only ME....is perfect at core 2.xxx. It doesn't mean you should pick what I picked. You can go to core 3.xx if you like...and there are plans for releasing 3.xx for v2.

  But what I understood and Gunnar if you are reading this please correct me if I am wrong...adding pamela and keeping rtg and saga and fpu without adding aga is not possible. It is either take over all or not...that is what I understood. Gunnar if you are reading this..please correct me if I am wrong.
 
 


John William

Posts 453
21 Aug 2019 18:07


J.M. Lapilainen wrote:

Roy Gillotti wrote:

   
J.M. Lapilainen wrote:

    who would even need RTG at that point
     

      RTG is how SAGA achieves those resolutions.
   

   
    Ah, of course, silly me. I guess my brain was after some sort of native hd modes that would magically make saga small enough to fit in. Too bad, switching inputs is kinda inconvenient but I'd rather keep the FPU so no GOLD3 for me.

Oh! I get used to switching back and forth. I am happy with the setting to be honest. Maybe one day I will find an auto-switch hardware to do it for me. But that is way below priority for me.



Hans-Georg Winkler

Posts 26
22 Aug 2019 15:22


@John William: "KEEP AMIGA CLASSIC INTEGRATED PERSONALITY in tact" -> I fully agree with you :-) And I am happy with my V2 as it is (a powerfull accelerator plus RTG).

Sadly my A500 has no expansion slots and there are no soundcards for the A500 on the market. Gunnar made some advertising (here in the forum) for pamela and I was curious about the possibility to have better sound for my A500. That was the reason why I asked my question in the first place ;-)
 


John William

Posts 453
22 Aug 2019 18:26


Hans-Georg Winkler wrote:

  @John William: "KEEP AMIGA CLASSIC INTEGRATED PERSONALITY in tact" -> I fully agree with you :-) And I am happy with my V2 as it is (a powerfull accelerator plus RTG).
 
  Sadly my A500 has no expansion slots and there are no soundcards for the A500 on the market. Gunnar made some advertising (here in the forum) for pamela and I was curious about the possibility to have better sound for my A500. That was the reason why I asked my question in the first place ;-)
   
 

 
  That is not true. You can get one of these EXTERNAL LINK . I own one of them myself. Reason why I have it stored in the drawer and not used is because I do not have enough space and not enough money to buy hardware for it. IN the future I plan to get a Zorro II Ethernet card for faster data transfer speed.
 
  If you are stuck with A500 for example....you can turn it into an A2000 without needing to tower it and still enjoy all the power the Vampire can give it.
 
  To me...the A500 is my main Amiga computer!! I am using ATX PC PSU, I have 4xIDE Buffer installed in it which gives me the ability to use a DVD burner and a 260 GB mechanical hard drive. I am enjoying it with my other 32 GB CF as the main bootable drive.
 
  For other people they hate all these cluttered cables and stuff...for me...I love it. My A500 is my favorite Amiga classic model on Earth!

OH! I also tried it by the way...with my A500 I can now play Diablo!

SO PICTURE THIS..Diablo running on your Amiga 500...USING YOUR A500 PAULA FOR MUSIC, SOUND AND VOICES....your Amiga 500 then reverts back to her true identity of OCS custom chipset and she USES HER TRUE CHIP RAM with the added touch of RTG and SAGA and IDE.......WHAT ELSE A MAN NEED FOR HIS AMIGA COMPUTER!!

BEST PART I GET TO ENJOY WATCHING MOVIES WITH THE AUDIO COMING FROM MY PAULA!!


Eric Gus

Posts 339
23 Aug 2019 07:04


Core3 for me all the way when its out. I need the 2+mb chip ram and physically modding my "original - original first Amiga I ever bought" is totally out of the question, so no mega chip for me.. my rev A500 would require cutting the mobo and thats a non-starter.. Also as its got the NTSC only OCS Agnus I lack PAL modes which would be nice to finally have..


Hans-Georg Winkler

Posts 26
23 Aug 2019 08:07


OK I didn't know that there is a zorro expansion for the A500 available but I don't like to have all the cluttered cables and stuff (my A500 looks like a original A500 without expansions, everything is inside). I am more a fan of a clean and slim Amiga ;-) So I prefer internal solutions and fortunately the A500 hase enough space inside. I was thinking that there is maybe a soundcard available for the I/O expansions on the V2? Like the Ethernet solution?
 
  In the end I will stay with the good old Paula :-)


Henryk Richter
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 105
23 Aug 2019 10:22


Hans-Georg Winkler wrote:

  In the end I will stay with the good old Paula :-)

She's not that bad, you know :-)

Especially with ECS (Agnus 8372a or newer plus Denise 8373), 14 Bit done _right_ and some frequency response correction for which the Vampire has ample reserves, you can get a nice clean sound out of her.


Hans-Georg Winkler

Posts 26
23 Aug 2019 11:22


Yup you are right! the Paula is a very unique and underestimated sound chip with hidden capability ;-)
 
  what du you mean with "and some frequency response correction for which the Vampire has ample reserves"?


Henryk Richter
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 105
23 Aug 2019 16:06


Hans-Georg Winkler wrote:

  what du you mean with "and some frequency response correction for which the Vampire has ample reserves"?

That it can be done in software without hurting performance noticeably.


Mr-Z EdgeOfPanic

Posts 181
23 Aug 2019 17:29


Henryk Richter wrote:

Hans-Georg Winkler wrote:

    what du you mean with "and some frequency response correction for which the Vampire has ample reserves"?
 

  That it can be done in software without hurting performance noticeably.

I think Henryk means something like the 14 bit amp in Eagle Player, and I have to admit it sounds great!


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