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Are We Just Nostalgic Or Should the Amiga Advance?page  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 

Sean Sk

Posts 346
06 Jul 2019 03:35


nsklaus - wrote:

it cannot be justified in 2017 let alone 2020.

   
Sorry but I've never understood this line of reasoning.
What do we need in 2020? The latest and greatest and fastest? Or are we being brainwashed into believing we need it because of blatant commercialism. I can't say I'm 100 percent immune to this, but I'm bored with modern tech and my life is no better off for it then it was 20-25 years ago. In fact, I think I'm more stressed out now. Sorry but I'm happy to stick with my Amiga and happy to ride along casually and at a slow steady pace on the Vampire journey.
   
I think I'm grumpy today. :)


Mike Kopack

Posts 265
06 Jul 2019 03:50


sean sk wrote:

nsklaus - wrote:

  it cannot be justified in 2017 let alone 2020.

   
  Sorry but I've never understood this line of reasoning.
  What do we need in 2020? The latest and greatest and fastest? Or are we being brainwashed into believing we need it because of blatant commercialism. I can't say I'm 100 percent immune to this, but I'm bored with modern tech and my life is no better off for it then it was 20-25 years ago. In fact, I think I'm more stressed out now. Sorry but I'm happy to stick with my Amiga and happy to ride along casually and at a slow steady pace on the Vampire journey.
   
  I think I'm grumpy today. :)

Are you going to yell at us to "get off my lawn" soon? ;) 

(Kidding man, I'm getting to that point myself! Retirement can't come soon enough!!!)



Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 4703
06 Jul 2019 05:51


nsklaus - wrote:

  it's not for me, i don't even runs any amiga-like OS and i've sold all my amiga gears around 2002.
  ... 
  I'm happy with linux
 

 
OK, so you have no AMIGA at all, right?
Does this also mean that you never ran "Coffin" on Vampire?
That you don't know how good/bad it runs?

Why do you "cry Wolf" all the time?


Michael Borrmann

Posts 133
06 Jul 2019 09:01


@NSKLaus:
  Really, who gives a fuck? People tried it again and again with PPC and AROS/X86 whatever to create "a modern Amiga".
 
  Nobody gave a fuck. We are not enough people to get this started.
 
  Meanwhile we can have fun with what we have Amiga wise, and use the modern computers we have to do the modern stuff with them..
 
  If that's not enough for you, then leave. Honestly, you won't be happy with anything the Amiga can offer you.


Nsklaus -

Posts 63
06 Jul 2019 11:09


@sean sk
the idea of getting the fastest and greatest computer is ridiculous.
i never did that. beside performance-wise apollo project is bringing the goods. about greatness, amigaos have quite some of it already.
no the only problems is a set of few limitations and little problems amigaos has. (mainly: stability, kill tasks, free resources)
 
@gunnar
yes i did buy a vampire, and i did run "coffin" before it was called that. it's just a bundled amigaos image of 32gb. but i did run it.
what i'm telling is based on actual experience of course.
i already explained that in this thread, in a previous post.
and i'm not "crying wolf" i'm just speaking about a serious set of problem amigaos model has. it could be corrected one day if there's a will for it.
     
     
@boremann
aros didn't try that yet. so far it mostly followed amigaos model from 3.1 design, and as such inherited most of the flaw amiga has.
but it's good first step to replace amigaos as clone. improvements can come later. which is what i'm talking about.
     
@kopack
when aros did port the 3d stack gallium, it was a one man job, for free and it was a great achievement. aros itself was made by just a team of a handful talented people. and no money. correcting amigaos memory handling problem could be done by one man.
the idea that in order to do it you need a lot of devs and a lots of money is wrong.
     
@all
- os4 did some improvement in that area already. (but hyperlong is bad, won't touch anything from them again)
- morphos team is set to do it in morphos4.
- atari people did it.
- i bet aros will do it too at some point.
but first step is recognizing the problem for what it is. 
discussing it nicely without fearing taboo or blasphemy.
pretending a problem doesn't exists never made it disappear.


Nsklaus -

Posts 63
06 Jul 2019 12:02


@Renee Cousins

and for the records,
no i don't believe the future of amiga was windows-nt and risc hp-pa cpu with hombre and amiga emulation.
         
that plan came because commodore was mismanaged and already taking the fall. they desesperately searched a way to cut the expenses and came up with this bad idea.
         
but if commodore could have just continued to pay amigaos team,
  things wouldn't have gone that ridiculous way. it was just a coutermeasure plan.
         
do you really think the original team responsible for developping the OS went thinking like that ?
- one morning: "oh hey i have a brillant idea, let's can all our designs so far, all our previous plans and go windows-nt instead we'll emulate aos, it's not a big deal, it will be great"
(and everyone else inside the amigaos team responded)
- oh what a good idea..
         
no.
that plan was imposed to them by ignorant management bosses. and they were unhappy about it.
what commodore management wanted is irrelevent, what is important is what the amigaos team wanted, had planned.
   
another thing that can be ignored nowdays is time and money.
opensource world shows this all the time. heck even game industry shows it with the "bedroom coder" concept. one man, a labour of love, and success. see cavestory for one example.
it can be done slowly, there's no rush. one day, like when aros did experimental smp, someone will say: 'hey i've build this custom kernel, it's memory protected / memory managed. let's try to compile a few apps on it and see how it runs. and so it will happen. only the will count.


Olaf Schoenweiss

Posts 631
06 Jul 2019 15:11


Steve, you can do your infight with others but please do not talk about things you do not know
 
  Aros is much more than 3.1... I am not interested to make lengthy posts about that, you can read it yourself when you are interested... if not simply stop talking about that and do not make claims based on assumptions


Mr Niding

Posts 443
06 Jul 2019 15:14


@Olaf

Does there seem to be more activity on AROS these days?


Olaf Schoenweiss

Posts 631
06 Jul 2019 15:16


yes on both ARM and 68k branch. RPi 4 would be a nice little platform. And of course Vampire. It already booted but was a little slow but improvements promised


Nsklaus -

Posts 63
06 Jul 2019 16:23


it appears to me, michal schultz is doing lots of good researchs.
he's not the only one making aros going forward, but i like following his experiments.

people can see aros progress and monitor activity by looking at git commits:
EXTERNAL LINK  it's often updated on a daily basis.
that is inspiring.


Steve Ferrell

Posts 387
06 Jul 2019 16:38


Olaf Schoenweiss wrote:

  Steve, you can do your infight with others but please do not talk about things you do not know
   
    Aros is much more than 3.1... I am not interested to make lengthy posts about that, you can read it yourself when you are interested... if not simply stop talking about that and do not make claims based on assumptions
 

   
I know quite a bit about AROS and I use it often,  and for 68K, it IS essentially OS 3.1 with a few missing bits.  So no, I'm not assuming anything.  AROS for 68K lacks all the things that Nsklaus keeps bitching about.

And the other versions of AROS that run on x86 and ARM also lack those features unless you magically added them last night while I slept.


Nsklaus -

Posts 63
06 Jul 2019 16:40


@ferrell
be polite please.
discussion is not 'bitching'.
 
and by the way, even if aros does not have memory protection, resources tracking, and so on, it doesn't mean it is not more advanced than amigaos3.1 in other areas. your statement is illogic.


Olaf Schoenweiss

Posts 631
06 Jul 2019 18:22


you repeat it again
   
    Aros is not 3.1
   
    It includes lots of additions. There is 64bit. There is Gallium. There is SMP... There is PCI, AHI, USB-Support, Network Stack, CybergraphX, MUI (Zune)
   
    How can you claim you know aros and say such a nonsense.
 
  It has only limited memory protection. The problem is you would loose most existing software if you would implement it.
 
  But that was not what you talked about.
 
  You wrote Aros not even reached 3.1 after 20 years. THAT is nonsense!!!


Olaf Schoenweiss

Posts 631
06 Jul 2019 18:33


Yes he has interesting ideas

Hopefully he will finish RPi port first ;)

The next idea was to use Linux as Base and integrate Aros in it, staying as compatible as possible (if I understood him right ;) )

But without compromises dropping compatibility if needed. It would be more or less what many people ask for, a modern amiga based system, with linux software but without amiga specific software


Michal Pietal

Posts 101
06 Jul 2019 18:33


My point: we are nostalgic AND Amiga should advance.

> 1. Do we want the Amiga to advance into the future?

Yes.  See: OS4, V4 Standalone.

> 2. Do we have the resources to advance it?

Yes.  When Linus Torvalds started Linux, there was also community behind it, no company.  We have both.

> 3. Am i completely wrong and memory protection isn't needed?

I am not that technical to answer this question.  It wasn't needed to date so maybe it's OK here to stay.


Olaf Schoenweiss

Posts 631
06 Jul 2019 18:39


I see two reasons for memory protection:

1.memory protection is needed to prevent the system to crash if you have problematic software

2.security reasons, a system without memory protection is extremely vulnerable against a virus and similar

If we need it depends on what we want to do with such a system. If it is only used as a hobby then not. If people want to use it as everyday-system and want to do online-banking with it (as a example) memory protection is urgent. I guess for most it is only hobby.


Steve Ferrell

Posts 387
06 Jul 2019 18:56


Olaf Schoenweiss wrote:

    you repeat it again
       
        Aros is not 3.1
       
        It includes lots of additions. There is 64bit. There is Gallium. There is SMP... There is PCI, AHI, USB-Support, Network Stack, CybergraphX, MUI (Zune)
       
        How can you claim you know aros and say such a nonsense.
     
      It has only limited memory protection. The problem is you would loose most existing software if you would implement it.
     
      But that was not what you talked about.
     
      You wrote Aros not even reached 3.1 after 20 years. THAT is nonsense!!!
   

   
I never stated that AROS is AmigaOS 3.1 or that code was stolen from OS 3.1 to develop AROS....Your'e taking my comments out of context. AROS essentially replicates OS 3.1 as an open source alternative and it doesn't yet do it very well at all.  It lacks optimizations and several features are still missing even after 24 years in development. Have you added those missing features and optimized AROS 68K while no one was looking?
   
I know AROS quite well and I was one of the first beta testers for ARIX. I was even required to sign an NDA to be a beta tester for ARIX.  None of the features you're tossing around have anything to do with stability except for the lame memory protection you mentioned which is so limited that it is useless, which is why Michal decided to use a Linux kernel with ARIX.  AROS still suffers from all the same handicaps that are found in OS 3.1.  Any misbehaving app can bring the entire OS down, period. Memory fragmentation is still a problem as well.
   
None of the AROS releases support REAL memory protection, process separation, nor multi-user capabilities.....and yes, AROS 68K hasn't even reached feature parity with AmigaOS 3.1 as some of features in AmigaOS 3.1 are still missing in AROS 68K. 
   
What does PCI, AHI, USB stack, network stack, CybergraphX, etc...have to do with system stability?  Nothing really.  All of these features have been available to classic OS 3.1 for years so what's new about this?
   
So yes, I stand by my comments that AROS 68K still hasn't reached feature parity with AmigaOS 3.1 even after 24 years.  You even have to borrow some software from your original OS 3.1 disks in order to gain full access to OS 3.1 features.  It is just as unstable as OS 3.1 and runs substantially slower due to un-optimized code and still lacks several features that I have with AmigaOS 3.1 out of the box.
   


Nsklaus -

Posts 63
06 Jul 2019 19:30


@ferrell
  - for one thing, aros can be compiled using modern toolchain while amigaos can't.
  - then, it has also been ported to many architechture, proving it is coded in a fashion that is versatile and not tied, hardcoded to specific hardware while amigaos itself, is not portable as of now.
  - and finaly, all those tools, ahi, mui, cgfx, usb, pci, network stack ... amigaos use 3rd party addition to support that, while aros have it all integrated and maintained unless i'm mistaken? it's a big difference.
   
    by saying this, my intention is not to have this thread to slide to an aros vs amigaos fight but rather to show aros could become an appealing replacement clone with real added values over amigaos.
    since amigaos is frozen and a clone / replacement is needed, then for your consideration, think what aros could bring.

and for 68k branch, i think the standalone will be a perfect candidate. probably the best 68k machine there will be around.


Steve Ferrell

Posts 387
06 Jul 2019 20:29


nsklaus - wrote:

@ferrell
    - for one thing, aros can be compiled using modern toolchain while amigaos can't.
    - then, it has also been ported to many architechture, proving it is coded in a fashion that is versatile and not tied, hardcoded to specific hardware while amigaos itself, is not portable as of now.
    - and finaly, all those tools, ahi, mui, cgfx, usb, pci, network stack ... amigaos use 3rd party addition to support that, while aros have it all integrated and maintained unless i'm mistaken? it's a big difference.
     
      by saying this, my intention is not to have this thread to slide to an aros vs amigaos fight but rather to show aros could become an appealing replacement clone with real added values over amigaos.
      since amigaos is frozen and a clone / replacement is needed, then for your consideration, think what aros could bring.
 
  and for 68k branch, i think the standalone will be a perfect candidate. probably the best 68k machine there will be around.

So what?  Use of a a modern toolchain doesn't magically cause memory protection, process separation, virtual memory or any other capability to suddenly appear in AROS 68K.  Those all require years of development and testing.....and we're at the 24 year mark already...so please, hold your breath.

And no, no one needs a clone.  There isn't a single good reason why someone who currently has a requirement to run mission critical applications to switch from proven operating systems such as Linux, Windows or MacOS over to something as unstable and unreliable as a classic Amiga or a Vampire running AROS 68K or OS 3.x.

Given the following, convince a classic Amiga or Vampire user to switch to AROS 68K:

- It's slower than OS 3.1 due to un-optimized code
- It's less compatible.  Several apps and games that run fine under OS 3.x won't run under AROS
- AROS 68K lacks several key features found in OS 3.x.  One has to copy device drivers, device handlers, fonts and other software from their OS 3.x disks to their AROS 68K system if they want all the features that they had under OS 3.x
- And finally, AROS 68K suffers from all the instability issues that plague OS 3.x due to the lack of memory protection and process separation

So convince us why we "need" AROS 68K or an enhanced OS 3.x!



Nsklaus -

Posts 63
06 Jul 2019 23:43


Olaf Schoenweiss wrote:

  Yes he has interesting ideas
 
  Hopefully he will finish RPi port first ;)
 
  The next idea was to use Linux as Base and integrate Aros in it, staying as compatible as possible (if I understood him right ;) )
 
  But without compromises dropping compatibility if needed. It would be more or less what many people ask for, a modern amiga based system, with linux software but without amiga specific software
 

 
  @Olaf
  thank you for your replies.
  it is good to see progress in amiga world.
  aros honor its name by experimenting lots of different ideas like that.
  i was happy to see kalamatee is back too.
  great to see 68k branch was brought back to level with the other branches,
  interesting developments going on.
  also thanks for making aros vision distro.
  best wishes.
 

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