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Polygon Pushing Performance of the 080page  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 

Louis Dias
(Needs Verification)
Posts 55/ 1
15 Oct 2018 03:26


Daniel Sevo wrote:

Louis Dias wrote:

      ---><8
       
        Which brings me to a point... Looking back at my previous post...  Someone does need to port Warp/Wazp 3D to run on the 080.  From there, the team then can analyze what functions could be accelerated by adding them to the [SAGA/SAGA3D] hardware implementation...
     

     
     
      Mr Dias, you do realize Alain Thellier here in the forums is the author of Wazp3d? ;-) He has come with practical input to Gunnar to make such a thing easier and more efficent... (Meaning basically you can sort of cheat by adding specifically requested isntructions to AMMX to boost performance)
      EXTERNAL LINK     
      Also, what you say is not wrong, just not new.
  [Edit:] (links didnt point to right thread, but..)simply enter wazp3d in the search box in the forum and you'll find plenty of threads with this topic.
     
      Cheers
     

I posted a link as to what MMX is some posts ago.  A functional 3D gpu is not just a matter of executing some simple math functions on an array.  If it was, the CELL and PS3 would have been superior to the XBOX 360.
You'd get to the point where you're feeding the cpu so much graphical processing commands that there wouldn't be any room in the cache for other things, like sound, responding to user input and running whatever logic the game or application you are running requires.  This was the fallacy of the original PS3 design prior to adding the RSX Nvidia GPU.



Daniel Sevo

Posts 299
15 Oct 2018 18:02


Louis Dias wrote:

 
Daniel Sevo wrote:

 
Louis Dias wrote:

        ---><8
         
          Which brings me to a point... Looking back at my previous post...  Someone does need to port Warp/Wazp 3D to run on the 080.  From there, the team then can analyze what functions could be accelerated by adding them to the [SAGA/SAGA3D] hardware implementation...
       

       
       
        Mr Dias, you do realize Alain Thellier here in the forums is the author of Wazp3d? ;-) He has come with practical input to Gunnar to make such a thing easier and more efficent... (Meaning basically you can sort of cheat by adding specifically requested isntructions to AMMX to boost performance)
        EXTERNAL LINK       
        Also, what you say is not wrong, just not new.
    [Edit:] (links didnt point to right thread, but..)simply enter wazp3d in the search box in the forum and you'll find plenty of threads with this topic.
       
        Cheers
       
 

  I posted a link as to what MMX is some posts ago.  A functional 3D gpu is not just a matter of executing some simple math functions on an array.  If it was, the CELL and PS3 would have been superior to the XBOX 360.
  You'd get to the point where you're feeding the cpu so much graphical processing commands that there wouldn't be any room in the cache for other things, like sound, responding to user input and running whatever logic the game or application you are running requires.  This was the fallacy of the original PS3 design prior to adding the RSX Nvidia GPU.
 
 

 
  Lets be realistic. Focus here is not PS3 graphics performance or even anything remotely close to that. We are talking about stuff you could do with AMD 3DNow! type of solutions... Thats pre-GPU era tech.. and ultimate realistic goal for the near future generation Vampire is probably a PS1 emulator. Anything beyond that is a fantasy for now.
  Should the project memebers move on to a next gen FPGA platform we could start speculation about this or that proper GPU implemented in the FPGA running at high clock-speeds. IMO we won't be there for a couple years at least.. so lets stay on course here and focus on what can be done with current architecture + minor tweaks to it + properly optimized driivers..stuf like Wazp3d running the best it can on AMMX and be happy with that for now ;-)
 
 
 


Louis Dias
(Needs Verification)
Posts 55/ 1
15 Oct 2018 18:51


How is AMD 3dNow any different than MMX?  It did nothing for 3D gaming ec
EXTERNAL LINK 
Look, you are the one not being realistic.  Computing the position of a polygon is not the only thing that a GPU does.  I mentioned the PS3 because an 080 with 8 AMMX units wouldn't be much different than the CELL processor with it's 7[or8] SPUs.  Clearly that reference was lost on you.  The CELL processor at 3.2GHz still needed a gpu to do acceptable 720p graphics.

All 3DNow and MMX did was a mild improvement in fps.  However, a GPU was still a requirement.  It didn't replace 3D accelerators on the PC.


Vojin Vidanovic
(Needs Verification)
Posts 1916/ 1
15 Oct 2018 18:51


Daniel Sevo wrote:

    IMO we won't be there for a couple years at least.. so lets stay on course here and focus on what can be done with current architecture + minor tweaks to it + properly optimized driivers..stuf like Wazp3d running the best it can on AMMX and be happy with that for now ;-) 
 

 
  Again, if we could have 68k w3d and StormMESA this/next year and further MMX optimization of datatypes, support in AmigaAmp decoder etc. I would be more then happy.
 
  Plus, if we get PLAYSTATION 1 up and running, here I am!
 
  AMD 3D! now class of CPUs already had GPUs alongside,so we are in strange space of early Pentium I MMX with 2D SVGA card and Sound Blaster 16 soon :-) But there were a lot of nice games there even 3D.
 
  Surely, 1994-1996 era titles would be great.
  By remading it with license. Licenses should not be expensive since games are now two decades + old.
 
  Hopefully, Vampire Publishing Foundation could publish (in no peculiar order):
 
  VAMPIRE BALL - Speedbal 2 remade
  VAMPIRE FODDER - Cannon Fodder 1,2 remade
    XCOM VAMPIRE UNKNOWN - OpenXCom + all mods optimized + Sabre Team
  VAMPIRESHIP - Gunship 2000+expansions,Gunship!,Subwar 2050
  VAMPIRE CENTAURY - Alpha Centaury + expansions remade
  VAMPIRE COMMANDER - WC 2-4 & Wing Commander: Privateer
  STREETS OF VAMPIRE - Streets of Rage 3
  VAMPIRECRAFT -Warcraft II: Tides of Darkness and Warcraft 3
  VAMPIREIZATION -  Civilization II/up to III, Colonization advanced
  SUPER VAMPIRE 64 - Super Mario 64
  VAMPIREGORIA - Phantasmagoria
  DUKE VAMPIRE EM - Native Duke Nukem 3D + mods and expansions
  VAMPIRE ATTACK - Classic Tetris + Tetris Attack, Super Famicom
  RETURN OF VAMPIRE - Super Star Wars: Return of the Jedi (SNES)
  VAMPIRE FIGHTER - Star Wars: TIE Fighter
  VAMPIREABLO - Diablo + expansions
  SYSTEM VAMPIRE - System Shock
  VAMPIRE 3D - Amiga 500 HUNTER remake
  VAMPIRE WARRIOR - Trexx Warrior remake
  VAMPIRE RACER - Stunt car racer / Formula one / Roadkill remakes
  VAMPIRES GREATEST ADVENTURES - Indiana Jones' Greatest Adventures
  VAMPIRE VS PREDATOR - Alien Vs. Predator (Jaguar, 3DO)
  UNDER A VAMPIRE MOON - Under a Killing Moon
  MASTER OF VAMPIRES -  Master of Magic
  VAMPIRE RUNNER - Lode Runner: The Legend Returns
  BIRDS OF AMIGA - Birds of Pray / F117 / A10 remakes
  VAMPIRE COP - Robocop 3 remake
  VAMPIREUTERUS - Deuterus remake + k240
  VAMPIRE STRATEGY - Supremacy, Battle Isle 1-2-3, History Line, Populous
  NO SECOND VAMPIRE - No second prize remake
  VAMPIRE ENCOUTERS - Elite frontier first encouters
  INTERNATIONAL VAMPIRE - International Karate + and Usagi Joyimbo
  VAMPIRE STONE - Moonstone remake, as seen in Crown demo
  VAMPIRE SYNDICATE - Syndicate+expansions, Syndicate 2
  VAMPIRE FROM THE DEEP - Xcom:Terror from the deep CD+patches
  VAMPIRE BLAST EM - Tanks + Dyna Blaster + Worms DC
  VAMPIRE DUNE - Dune 2000 + Dune Emperor Battle for Arakis
  VAMPIRE KONG - Donkey Kong Country (Snes)
  VAMPIRE BEAT EM - Vigilante + Double Dragon Neon downmake + Samurai Shodown II (NeoGeo)TEKKEN (PS1 downgraded)
  VAMPIRE WORLD -  Discworld
  VAMPIRE NEXT GENERATION - . Star Trek: The Next Generation - A Final Unity
  VAMPIRE TURRICAN - Super Turrican 2 (SNES) + Hurrican
  VAMPIRE MAGIC - Hi-Octane + Magic Carpet + Dungeon Keeper
  VAMPIRE OUT - Wipeout 2097 (Saturn)
  VAMPIRE NBA - Nba Jam + Nba Live 97
  VAMPIRE 51 - Area 51 (Arcade)
  VAMPIRE GRAND PRIX - Virtual Grand Prix + Flyin´High + Desert Racing of BarDos
  VAMPIRE SPECIES - Genetic Species + Alien Breed 3d 2
 
  And so on ;-)
 
    ** *
  VAMPIRE RUNNER
  Early strange 3D point and click I would love to see V4 supporting (with higher CPU clock, better FPU, more cache and faster/more RAM) would be Bladerunner 1997.
 
  Here are the Blade Runner system requirements (minimum)
 
      CPU: Pentium III or Athlon MP
      CPU SPEED: 90 MHz
      RAM: 16 MB
      VIDEO CARD: GeForce 6200 LE / Radeon 7000 or better
      SOUND CARD: Yes
      FREE DISK SPACE: 150 MB


Matthew Burroughs

Posts 59
15 Oct 2018 18:59


Whole lotta Vampire there...


Vojin Vidanovic
(Needs Verification)
Posts 1916/ 1
15 Oct 2018 19:01


Matthew Burroughs wrote:

Whole lotta Vampire there...

None of the exist, but would be really nice to be remade to actually have Vampire as NPCs or main characters ;-) When Apple can do the branding, why cant we? :-)


Daniel Sevo

Posts 299
15 Oct 2018 19:14


Louis Dias wrote:

How is AMD 3dNow any different than MMX?  It did nothing for 3D gaming ec
  EXTERNAL LINK 
  Look, you are the one not being realistic.  Computing the position of a polygon is not the only thing that a GPU does.  I mentioned the PS3 because an 080 with 8 AMMX units wouldn't be much different than the CELL processor with it's 7[or8] SPUs.  Clearly that reference was lost on you.  The CELL processor at 3.2GHz still needed a gpu to do acceptable 720p graphics.
 
  All 3DNow and MMX did was a mild improvement in fps.  However, a GPU was still a requirement.  It didn't replace 3D accelerators on the PC.

(I believe 3dnow! supported float ops vs integer for MMX but thats not the main thing here. ;-)
Not sure where you wanna go with this GPU "rant".. Look, its not like anyone doubts a proper GPU is better for 3d than no GPU, everyone saw how the first GPUs destroyed alla CPU+ SIMD for heavy 3d stuff back in the day.. But... some ppl stick to the topic of the thread and some start wandering off..The topic is, how powerful is the 080 as it is.. Not what could we do to turn it into a dream machine.
You are welcome to start a new thread about best practice to implement GPU into the FPGA. I'm sure a lot of clever speculation can be done on that topic.




Vojin Vidanovic
(Needs Verification)
Posts 1916/ 1
15 Oct 2018 19:34


Daniel Sevo wrote:
  But... some ppl stick to the topic of the thread and some start wandering off..The topic is, how powerful is the 080 as it is.. Not what could we do to turn it into a dream machine.
 

 
  Quite powerful, needs a higher clock over FPGA generations. Lets see how V4 goes, and in V6 it would need an GPU. But, until then all above titles are someting 080 100Mhz + SAGA + AMMX can do. No real 3D there.
 
  And it could do this BrutalDOOM/DOOM64 and Aliens mod :-)
  EXTERNAL LINK 
  Seen Trevor /AmiWest 2018. Same mambo jumbo, milking on Enhancer, Libre and other usefull s/w is far off.


Louis Dias
(Needs Verification)
Posts 55/ 1
16 Oct 2018 13:40


Daniel Sevo wrote:

 
Louis Dias wrote:

  How is AMD 3dNow any different than MMX?  It did nothing for 3D gaming ec
    EXTERNAL LINK   
    Look, you are the one not being realistic.  Computing the position of a polygon is not the only thing that a GPU does.  I mentioned the PS3 because an 080 with 8 AMMX units wouldn't be much different than the CELL processor with it's 7[or8] SPUs.  Clearly that reference was lost on you.  The CELL processor at 3.2GHz still needed a gpu to do acceptable 720p graphics.
   
    All 3DNow and MMX did was a mild improvement in fps.  However, a GPU was still a requirement.  It didn't replace 3D accelerators on the PC.
 

 
  (I believe 3dnow! supported float ops vs integer for MMX but thats not the main thing here. ;-)
  Not sure where you wanna go with this GPU "rant".. Look, its not like anyone doubts a proper GPU is better for 3d than no GPU, everyone saw how the first GPUs destroyed alla CPU+ SIMD for heavy 3d stuff back in the day.. But... some ppl stick to the topic of the thread and some start wandering off..The topic is, how powerful is the 080 as it is.. Not what could we do to turn it into a dream machine.
  You are welcome to start a new thread about best practice to implement GPU into the FPGA. I'm sure a lot of clever speculation can be done on that topic.
 

  Some games that supported 3DNow and it resulted in an fps increase.  On others it made no difference.  This is because 3DNow accelerated some game-logic.  The "3D" was still done by the gpu.
It's called *marketing*.


Vojin Vidanovic
(Needs Verification)
Posts 1916/ 1
16 Oct 2018 14:21


Louis Dias wrote:

    Some games that supported 3DNow and it resulted in an fps increase.  On others it made no difference.  This is because 3DNow accelerated some game-logic.  The "3D" was still done by the gpu.
    It's called *marketing*.
 

 
  My fav 3D Vogons say there were titles that actually used it, and it helped in peculiar areas. No one should ever think Altivec/MMX/SSE ... can replace a decent GPU.

But combo of nice CPU-FPU-and MMX/Altivec could do a decent render in not so high  resolutions. And we can expect more on Vamp side (with V4 even higher FPU precision and  "For the next Release we are currently working on the integration of I hope even 128 bit SSE compatible SIMD instructions. People will dislike "more x86 instructions", but would it make a difference if they were PPC or AMD? Standardization increases chances something will be developed for it.
  This means that MMX helped CPU in software rendering mode.
 
  Games:
  POD: Uses MMX, a special OEM version was bundled with Pentium MMX processors.
 
  Rebel Moon Rising: Requires MMX, was (exclusively?) bundled with Pentium MMX Overdrive CPUs.
 
  Extreme Assault: Uses MMX, probably one of the few DOS games to do so.
 
  Half-Life: Uses MMX to great extent, particularly for the software DSP sound engine and probably also skeletal animation system
 
  Unreal: Uses MMX for its Galaxy sound engine, in fact the readme suggests to lower the sampling rate to 11 kHz for better performance on non-MMX CPUs. MMX was also used greatly for the software renderer. There is probably some 3DNow! usage and SSE is detected, although I don't think it's used
 
  Quake II: 3DNow! patch written by AMD to promote K6-2, provides a notable speed boost (and supposedly there are even graphical differences with this?!). There are specific options available for 3DNow! software, OpenGL and Voodoo2 MiniGL ("3DfxGL") IIRC, and also a later version that is more optimized towards K7.
 
  Quake III Arena: Not sure on this one, I believe it uses MMX and 3DNow! but not SSE, even though it is detected?
 
  Emulators:
 
  ZSNES (DOS+Windows) supports MMX and requires it for certain video filters and audio interpolation options. ePSXe gets a sizeable speed boost from SSE I believe, although more checking would be needed. 1964 has a "SSE optimizations enabled" message.
 
  Armored Fist 2 from Novalogic uses MMX,probably other Novalogic games from that time use it.
 
  Z.A.R. (1997) MMX version (DOS/Windows)
 
  Two retail non-game software titles with MMX support were the pretty famous Kai's Supergoo and Kai's Photo Soap.
  Stuff like WinDVD also made good use of MMX and I remember some input plugins for Winamp did, too.
  Where MMX also gave a good performance boost once implemented was with descrambling analog Pay-TV via softwares called MoreTV, FreeTV, Pubs3 etc.
 
  Impulse Tracker uses MMX for real-time resonant filters that can be applied to any track or instrument independently. A nice DAW-like feature for such an oldschool tracker. I use the hell out of those filters. :)
 
  Probably several plugins.
 
  Can we do better? We have datatypes, video player, probably Vampire kickstart with some MMX for now. Hopefully wazp3d is next. AmigaAmp should have 080-MMX decoding engine.


Louis Dias
(Needs Verification)
Posts 55/ 1
16 Oct 2018 14:44


If you look at any game in Windows-land...  Increasing cpu power directly leads to an increase in FPS.  The quality of those actual frames is still determined by the gpu.
 
  In fact there is a current controversy over Intel's reported I9 results vs AMD chips since the I9 is being marketed as a gaming cpu.
 
  EXTERNAL LINK 
  So as I've said before - AMMX is great!  We still need dedicated 3D gpu logic added into current or new separate chip[s] to off-load the real work.


Vojin Vidanovic
(Needs Verification)
Posts 1916/ 1
16 Oct 2018 14:55


Louis Dias wrote:

If you look at any game in Windows-land...  Increasing cpu power directly leads to an increase in FPS.  The quality of those actual frames is still determined by the gpu.

100% agree + aware that is simply NOT possible even on V4. Tiny possibility is some GPU that could connect to expansion port, but that is a distant dream with no foot in reality. So maybe V5,V6 ... with either more FPGA space or simply Altera FPGA with ARM playing GPU or even GPU itself.

Man, what will be out there by the time we reach Stratix based Vamps, but I hope one day GPU would be piece of cake or a license.  And it can be like 3dfx early cards to 2D ISA/PCI cards - "just" a 3D crunch muscle to SAGA.


Louis Dias
(Needs Verification)
Posts 55/ 1
16 Oct 2018 19:51


Vojin Vidanovic wrote:

Louis Dias wrote:

  If you look at any game in Windows-land...  Increasing cpu power directly leads to an increase in FPS.  The quality of those actual frames is still determined by the gpu.
 

 
  100% agree + aware that is simply NOT possible even on V4. Tiny possibility is some GPU that could connect to expansion port, but that is a distant dream with no foot in reality. So maybe V5,V6 ... with either more FPGA space or simply Altera FPGA with ARM playing GPU or even GPU itself.
 
  Man, what will be out there by the time we reach Stratix based Vamps, but I hope one day GPU would be piece of cake or a license.  And it can be like 3dfx early cards to 2D ISA/PCI cards - "just" a 3D crunch muscle to SAGA.

I was setting the bar low at 100,000 texture-mapped and shaded polygons/sec to produce results like the consoles from 1994-1996.  Some could do more, but having a good framerate is a thing and the 080/Vampire should be capable of that once even a simple 3d acceleration unit once developed should be capable of.
I wouldn't even complain about a fixed-function shader pipeline (ala Nintendo Gamecube/Wii) instead of fully programmable one.  Again, walk before running...
EXTERNAL LINK


Peter Heginbotham

Posts 214
16 Oct 2018 22:56


Louis Dias wrote:

Vojin Vidanovic wrote:

 
Louis Dias wrote:

  If you look at any game in Windows-land...  Increasing cpu power directly leads to an increase in FPS.  The quality of those actual frames is still determined by the gpu.
 

 
  100% agree + aware that is simply NOT possible even on V4. Tiny possibility is some GPU that could connect to expansion port, but that is a distant dream with no foot in reality. So maybe V5,V6 ... with either more FPGA space or simply Altera FPGA with ARM playing GPU or even GPU itself.
 
  Man, what will be out there by the time we reach Stratix based Vamps, but I hope one day GPU would be piece of cake or a license.  And it can be like 3dfx early cards to 2D ISA/PCI cards - "just" a 3D crunch muscle to SAGA.
 

  I was setting the bar low at 100,000 texture-mapped and shaded polygons/sec to produce results like the consoles from 1994-1996.  Some could do more, but having a good framerate is a thing and the 080/Vampire should be capable of that once even a simple 3d acceleration unit once developed should be capable of.
  I wouldn't even complain about a fixed-function shader pipeline (ala Nintendo Gamecube/Wii) instead of fully programmable one.  Again, walk before running...
  EXTERNAL LINK 

why not just add a PCI-E bus



Samuel Crow

Posts 424
17 Oct 2018 03:29


Peter Heginbotham wrote:
why not just add a PCI-E bus

Because the drivers for closed-source hardware are as hard to come by as starting out fresh with new graphics core support.


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 6207
17 Oct 2018 06:47


The thread did start nice with good questions.
Its saddening to see how it degraded and went off topic.


Nicolas Sipieter
(Needs Verification)
Posts 115/ 1
17 Oct 2018 08:02


just as an idea,
why don't you create a forum subsection, for example called 'off-topic' or 'free4all' or whatever and divert there all the posts from vojin vidanovic and louis dias and other like them when they pollute otherwise perfectly good threads.
it would allow you to keep threads clean and on-topic, where only knowledgeable people would speak about valid and realistic ideas.
it would be better than just delete and censure people, censure always looks bad. one stone two birds. you keep topic clean and censure noone. everyone would be happy to be able to speak their mind, only in the right forum subsection. not in developpers threads.


Vojin Vidanovic
(Needs Verification)
Posts 1916/ 1
17 Oct 2018 10:34


nicolas sipieter wrote:

    vojin vidanovic and louis dias and other like them when they pollute otherwise perfectly good threads.
 

 
  Ok, I swear hereby to refrain to speaking in this thread, as well as will keep realistic in overall posts. No dreamland. You will try to make best of it. There was a coders/developers discussion 2-3 pages ago, please continue with that.


Calaminici Davide

Posts 26
17 Oct 2018 10:50


Interesting video:
  EXTERNAL LINK 
https://web.archive.org/web/20001109071400 EXTERNAL LINK


Nicolas Sipieter
(Needs Verification)
Posts 115/ 1
17 Oct 2018 10:58


@vojin
it's nothing personal, it's just that you post a lot in all threads all the time. it's not uncommon to see your name as last person that replied on every threads displayed on the main page.
you're just being enthusiastic i guess.
so sometimes, some of your posts could get diverted on specific forum subsection, according to the idea i suggested. that's the only reason your name was mentioned.

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