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Could a Vampire On Latest Core Emulate PPCpage  1 2 

Adam Whittaker

Posts 98
10 Apr 2018 11:16


I was over on EAB and noticed they have come a long way with there SONNET PPC stuff and it got me wondering... We have come a long way with our 68080 and its FPU is it powerful enough now to actaully emulate PPC processors? again this was just a thaught I will openly admit I know nothing about PPC!!


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 3395
10 Apr 2018 11:17


Adam Whittaker wrote:

is it powerful enough now to actually emulate PPC processors?

Yes 68080 is very powerful, clock by clock more powerful than a PowerPC.




Adam Whittaker

Posts 98
10 Apr 2018 11:21


does that mean that with the right software written we could potentially run PPC software on our Vampired Amigas?


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 3395
10 Apr 2018 12:01


Adam Whittaker wrote:

does that mean that with the right software written we could potentially run PPC software on our Vampired Amigas?

Yes of course.

Technically the APOLLO CPU is stronger than PowerPC.
APOLLO has more register
APOLLO supports more sizes
APOLLO supports more EA modes
APOLLO supports more operations and more different instructions.

All PowerPC instructions could be matched to an instruction of APOLLO.

Technically emulation PowerPC is not a problem.
The question is if it makes much sense.
As the amount of genuine PowerPC software is relative small, its questionable if developing such PPC-Run tool make that much sense.



Adam Whittaker

Posts 98
10 Apr 2018 12:11


yes i totally agree i was just wondering :) good to know the vamp has so much power and potential.


Markus B

Posts 37
10 Apr 2018 15:59


Well, it really doesn't make much sense.

Let's assume every instruction can be matched on-the-fly to an 080 command, a more or less best case scenario is the execution w/o any overhead. Maybe the 080 can outperform in some areas like memory performance.
But in general, this would be something like an 80 MHz PPC at best.

It's much better to use native 68k code instead, ideally optimized for 080 instructions.
Are there programs which are PPC only and interesting enough to run a such performance level?


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 277
10 Apr 2018 16:28


Markus B wrote:

    Well, it really doesn't make much sense.
   
      It's much better to use native 68k code instead, ideally optimized for 080 instructions.
      Are there programs which are PPC only and interesting enough to run a such performance level?
   

   
    I agree its both possible and pointless. Some JIT 603e interpreter could be done, same fashion Petunia is done in OS4, Rosseta in early x86 MacOS Xs etc. If 080 could support virtualization, even easier.
   
    First performance. Even it would be completely 080 AMMX ASM tuned, on current 80Mhz 080 it could do min 50Mhz and max 100-160Mhz 603e, depending on task in practice is weaker then any Blizz.
   
    Then there are very few AmigaOS 3.x wOS/pUp titles that never made it to 68k. Some wavetracer, maybe a PPC morph software and few Hyperion games lived to be fully PPC and not OS4 (in fact even today cant play Heretic II or Shogo on x1000).
   
    Any PPC modules (that do exist for paint, raytrace and morph software) for 68k software would be pointless to use as otherwise would be slower under emulation then 040 ones. Leave alone if 68k components were 080 optimized. Same goes to blitter and OS improvements done for wUp/PowerUp.This even with better Warp kernel, was such a situation that until OS4 classic that suspends 68k, Blizz owners that bought 060 and cheaper PPC had better overall exp. including PPC titles due to 68k video and OS calls, then users that purchased 040 and 604 maxed out.
   
    It would be far better if any of the authors of software would be given a Vampire and some 080 optimization tools. Grownth of 68k sofware eco-system is Vamp idea, emulation as necessary to expand the library.
   
    Only usage of such emulation would be benefit of running OS4 Classic in order to aid its backporting on Vamp, whereby Hyperion is unable to do even smaller tasks if not outsourced and with guaranteed market (like video drivers and enhancer milking).
   
    Other usage would be enabling UAE users to run WarpUp/PowerUp software in OS3 box but since ARM and x64 and PPC64 UAE users have grunt of CPU power emulation, they would praise this PPC 2 68k code emulator as good and fast if done right :)
   
  Running MorphOS in a box might be its best use, but alas, its limited to 1.x I believe, even some 3.x on Blizz pics do exist. Or some lightweight LXDE Debian PPC in box.


Tango One

Posts 88
10 Apr 2018 16:35


Gunnar von Boehn wrote:

Adam Whittaker wrote:

  is it powerful enough now to actually emulate PPC processors?
 

 
  Yes 68080 is very powerful, clock by clock more powerful than a PowerPC.
 
 

but apollo would need to pay a licence to A-eon. ?


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 3395
10 Apr 2018 16:38


tango one wrote:

  but apollo would need to pay a licence to A-eon. ?

What for?


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 277
10 Apr 2018 16:40


Gunnar von Boehn wrote:

 
tango one wrote:

    but apollo would need to pay a licence to A-eon. ?
   

    What for?
 

 
  No like Petunia author (Almos Rajnai, maybe he could just "reverse it" with a Vampire) never paid to Freescale or IBM.
 
  About Petunia
  EXTERNAL LINK  Same guy did a Flamingo, Commodore +4 emulator for 68k
EXTERNAL LINK   
  A-EON could/should be an interestee in developing Vamp titles, since they do claim to also publish 68k software.


Tango One

Posts 88
10 Apr 2018 16:47


Gunnar von Boehn wrote:

tango one wrote:

  but apollo would need to pay a licence to A-eon. ?
 

  What for?

if vampire could be used as a AmigaOne (ppc), would apollo need to pay a licence. ?


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 277
10 Apr 2018 16:53


tango one wrote:

      if vampire could be used as a AmigaOne (ppc), would apollo need to pay a licence. ?
     

   
    That brand name is exclusive to a PPC hardware so far, so very unlikely. Like said, Vamp would perform slower then slowest ever A1, 800Mhz G3 (with exception of ASIC or Arria 10 500+ Mhz Vamp), so there is no point. Current X5000 is PPC64, far far advanced chip (but board is smaller and less expandable design then x1000. There is no place for Vamp there.
   
    Gladly, even Vamp will never be A1, he is an Amiga capable of NG tasks - previously not possible on 040/060 while retaining much more of native abilities. That, and larger software library that can natively be utilized, makes it "equal" or "better" then e.g. x1000. At fraction of cost.
   
      In fact A1 name is after court under Hypes protection, so lawyer company from Belgium technically licensees a name for hardware manufacturer who then licensees them for an OS ... Nasty stuff where no one is much responsible, since drivers are often responsibility of 3rd parties  so blame can always be saturated in live beta testing :) And dont forget AEON is ony company selling Ubuntu 12 for 23e EXTERNAL LINK


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 3395
10 Apr 2018 17:07


tango one wrote:

if vampire could be used as a AmigaOne (ppc), would apollo need to pay a licence. ?

Why?
A license for what?

They did not invent or develop PPC.
They do not own PPC.
 


Stefano Briccolani

Posts 187
10 Apr 2018 17:07


Tango One
  No license needed for hardware emulation. But from my point of view emulating a ppc with a vampire is an useless effort. There's no reason to do that.


Matthew Langtry

Posts 130
10 Apr 2018 19:55


Winuae can do ppc if want to run ng classic software from 4.1


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 277
10 Apr 2018 19:59


Matthew Langtry wrote:

  Winuae can do ppc if want to run ng classic software from 4.1
 

 
  eehh ... Only few worthy thing exist, like Odyssey, Blender, Emotion video player and now Tower 57 and Spencer (that dont exist for 68k). Dopus 5, YAM, AmigaAmp, MUI5 ... exist also in 68k versions. Essentially, if few worthy could later have some Big Vamp edition, we could have *all* library vs few tools and apps. Here are all OS4 "killer apps" most ported from Linux and MOS EXTERNAL LINK 
  WinUAE + legal copy of OS4 Classic + Blizz ROMs, its not that cheap. Throw in AF and its at last 40 euros to see, and not much fun. AF guide
  EXTERNAL LINK 
  Hey, I recently discovered Hyperion has turned Amiga to a merch brand EXTERNAL LINK 


Anton Gale

Posts 5
11 Apr 2018 00:02


The most exciting thing about the Apollo core is that it is a NEW 68k CPU.  I can't wait to get my hands on one of these eventually. 

I too would like to see any new non-68k apps that were only developed on PPC re-compiled for 68080.  I don't know how fast the 68k core can eventually be pushed to, but FPGA releases do not seem to be slowing down.


M Rickan

Posts 139
11 Apr 2018 03:21


Anton Gale wrote:

  I too would like to see any new non-68k apps that were only developed on PPC re-compiled for 68080.

That would solve a wide range of issues.

The real challenge is that a fairly significant percentage of the community actively use the one application that is specifically designed for PPC - OS 4.x.

There are a lot of Hyperion detractors but PPC compatibility would make the Vampire the de facto Amiga architecture and render the X5000 and Tabor irrelevant.


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 3395
11 Apr 2018 06:53


m rickan wrote:

Anton Gale wrote:

I too would like to see any new non-68k apps that were only developed on PPC re-compiled for 68080.

 
That would solve a wide range of issues.

APOLLO 68080 is designed to be very powerful.
Its designed to be better to program than PowerPC and to be more powerful.

You can see this in several benchmarks.
For example in JPEG decoding the 68080@80 MHz is faster than 240 MHz PowerPC Cards.

You also see this when running ATARI KRONOS CPU Performance Benchmarks, APOLLO 68080 outruns by far the 260 MHz Coldfire CPU.

You can emulate other CPUs quite well with it.
NEOGEO games runs well, even running PC games in emulation like playing Command and Conquer in PC-Task is possible.

But of course in the FPGA there is a natural clockrate limitation.
You can not expect to run swift applications in an FPGA which normally need a Gigaherz CPU. An FPGA simply can not reach high enough clockrates.



Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 277
11 Apr 2018 11:52


m rickan wrote:

      The real challenge is that a fairly significant percentage of the community actively use the one application that is specifically designed for PPC - OS 4.x.
   

   
    Yes, but aside very few new titles that have really been done in last decade (games and video player and Hoolywood worth of mention) WarpOS software does not work on OS4 since SAM440 and A1-G4. And Hyperion doesnt find suitable to fix their own code, leaving their own titles playable on e.g. MorphOS. Somehwat WOS and not OS4 compatibility brings few more older games and apps in (iFusion,
    Turbo Print, ImageFX ...). Its less demanding emulation and would possibly make easier emulation and take adventage of retro Classic "extensive feel".
   
    But this is nowhere in teams agenda, and could be imagined goal. From OS4 there are few components improved that could be backported and some nice visual improvements (Enhancer minus Candi) and that is it. Aside from bumping the number OS 4.x is OS 3.1 backported to PPC and then wery inconsistevly developed. Thus, OS 3.9 has several improved components, and OS 3.x unofficial projects like Boing Bag 3 and 4, made it quite in improving OS 3.9 to functional OS 4.x level, minus the CPU power now brought by Vampire (in some areas currently outperforming low clock SAM440. v4s will raise the bar higher).
   
   
m rickan wrote:

    There are a lot of Hyperion detractors but PPC compatibility would make the Vampire the de facto Amiga architecture and render the X5000 and Tabor irrelevant.

   
    I believe it does it without PPC. I have suspended any plans of getting x5000 in life (to skip awful CFE and have high end MorphOS) to Vampire. For nice PPC experience seems G4 laptop or G5 desktop that support MorphOS, Linux and MacOS X is far better experience.
   
   
Gunnar von Boehn wrote:

    But of course in the FPGA there is a natural clockrate limitation.
    You can not expect to run swift applications in an FPGA which normally need a Gigaherz CPU. An FPGA simply can not reach high enough clockrates.
   

 
  Yes, Vamp is fastest 68k now but not yet so fast.So PPC emulation is ppedream same as x86 emulation now. Maybe some X15 V4 Vamp could have a WarpOS wrapper (if someone does it) and that would be it and yet would not offer much.
 
  As OS4 as goal: Hyperion seems to "target" Vampire with fixed OS 3.1 only for now. 
 
  Maybe left for ASIC days.

Gunnar von Boehn wrote:

  Yes 68080 is very powerful, clock by clock more powerful than a PowerPC.

True, but needs a higher clocked CPUs (larger FPGAs or ASICs). Hope to see V5+ Vamps also one day.

Something like Cyrix back in x86 war days :-) Superior design at lower clockrates :-)


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