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AMOS Pro Source Code Is Now Available ...page  1 2 3 4 

Steve Ferrell

Posts 424
26 Sep 2017 22:12


Samuel Crow wrote:

@Steve Farrell
  Those screenshots look like they only use chunky modes and no support for the Amiga chipset altogether.  That is why I don't think it will replace Blitz or AmigaE.  Remember that the Vampire has both of the capabilities at once.

Again, where are you getting this impression?  The Amiga version of PureBasic supports the Amiga's custom chip set fully.  PureBasic started out life on the Amiga first and then was made available for other platforms later.  It is still used by Demoscene coders.  Here's a fine example of it using the Amiga's custom chips.

EXTERNAL LINK 



Samuel Crow

Posts 424
26 Sep 2017 22:12


Asaf Ayoub wrote:

  Its all good, but if we want to expand to wider audience maybe one could set up a patreon bounty to fund development to port opensource Roslyn (core) to Amiga Like systems.
 
  The .NET Compiler Platform ("Roslyn") provides open-source C# and Visual Basic compilers with rich code analysis APIs.
 
  Apple did it for Mac, to get Visual Studio for Mac - users/devs are very excited what they can create.
 
  EXTERNAL LINK   

MUI probably can't handle it without a lot of work.


Steve Ferrell

Posts 424
26 Sep 2017 22:19


Philippe Flype wrote:

@Steve Ferrell
 
  I also use it very often, i find it just 'perfect' for many tasks, i even used it professionally during years, and Fred did absolute awesome work on it. For example, i used it to prepare all the gfx data for the DragonCrown tech demo.
   
  @Sam
 
  I was just proposing it as an option because sources have been provided years ago kindly by Frederic Laboureur, with hope someone could fork/maintain it. I realize it is quite out of topic, sorry for that. I dont want tell it is better or not than anything else, just witnessing it is an excellent one with source code provided. It is much faster, not even comparable, than Hollywood, in same range of speed than Blitz, and more system oriented than Amos. It was able to use chipset easily, sprites, paula, anything, and easy ASM support, or to open a screen/window and go the system way. The compiler strategy was to produce ASM source code, which makes it rather cool to support nowadays VASM for 080 as final assembler/linker. Now, i also find Amos, Blitz, and Hollywood rather cool for different qualities. Amos is cool because it is Amos, no need to argue (like AMAL, banks, etc.), Blitz is super for speed, for asm support, for the editor, for being able play with os. Hollywood, quite different target, because of stability, support, many features, portability...
 

I also use PureBasic professionally for many of the same reasons you stated.  I currently use it for rapid prototyping my LIDAR applications on Windows, Linux and OSX:  EXTERNAL LINK 
In most cases the resulting binaries are smaller and faster than those generated by XCode or Visual Studio.  In those cases, the prototypes become the finished products.




Samuel Crow

Posts 424
26 Sep 2017 22:32


Impressive!  I'll have to look at it more carefully.


Gregthe Canuck

Posts 274
26 Sep 2017 23:06



Expecting a .Net compiler/ecosystem is "insane". Too huge and complicated.


Samuel Crow

Posts 424
27 Sep 2017 11:25


I looked at PureBasic a little.  The source to the compiler is still closed source so no chance of adding AMMX support directly unless Fredric does it himself or it is implemented as a library function in Assembly code.  The included libraries are from 2.x even though though the compiler is v4.  The mismatch probably creates the need to update the example code and that was probably why I never used it.

The gist is that the library source is available but not under an open source license so I can't legally merge with Amos or another compiler.  If I wrote a transpiler that uses PureBasic as a backend, it might be more promising.  AmigaE is more powerful but doesn't use an external assembler.


Fernando Pereira

Posts 68
27 Sep 2017 19:29


gregthe canuck wrote:

           
              Expecting a .Net compiler/ecosystem is "insane". Too huge and complicated.
           

           
            True but it would open a freaking behemoth sized gate to the Amiga world, if ever done. In fact, the concept of walls and gates would simply disappear around the Amiga realm. Regardless, we need a solid vanguard coding solution for the Amiga which should include an easy language to learn such as Amos for beginners and C# to attract a large portion of nowadays-coders.
           
            As Amiga gurus disappear with time, it gets more difficult to find anyone to get things done on the Amiga from a software perspective, even when there are so many coders eager to develop for the Amiga but cannot, since they do not code in out-of-fashion ways. If we want to "catch up" with the rest of the world and keep the Amiga alive, we need to walk towards the "insane", otherwise Amiga's legacy will be reduced to stories on webpages.
           
          I'm sorry to be pessimist, and I hope I'm really wrong but, all this effort from Apollo Team will be in vain and just a temporarily nostalgic echoing of the past if we cannot catch up with the new coding technologies. We need a major project using Kickstarter or Patreon or whatever else, dedicating to develop a solid coding platform.
       
  And the saddest thing about this is that the above will never happen because the Amiga community is fragmented and broken either by purism, ideals or personal preferences.
     
  At least most agree that the Vampire is an exciting product, too bad that not everyone shares this view (see the previous paragraph).
 
  -----------------------------------
  bool bAmigaCommunityUnified = false;
  threadGameLoop = new Thread(new ThreadStart(Engine_MainLoop));
  threadGameLoop.Start();
 
  private void Engine_MainLoop()
  {
      While (!bAmigaCommunityUnified)
      {
          Check_AmigaCommunityStatus();
      }
  }
 
  private bool Check_AmigaCommunityStatus()
  {
      If (DevelopmentPlatformExists())
          return true;
      else
          return false;
  }


Philippe Flype
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 299
27 Sep 2017 20:28


Sam, i can easily ask to Fred about the license. Edit: mail sent.


Steve Ferrell

Posts 424
27 Sep 2017 22:02


Fernando Pereira wrote:

 
gregthe canuck wrote:

               
                Expecting a .Net compiler/ecosystem is "insane". Too huge and complicated.
               

               
              True but it would open a freaking behemoth sized gate to the Amiga world, if ever done. In fact, the concept of walls and gates would simply disappear around the Amiga realm. Regardless, we need a solid vanguard coding solution for the Amiga which should include an easy language to learn such as Amos for beginners and C# to attract a large portion of nowadays-coders.
             
              As Amiga gurus disappear with time, it gets more difficult to find anyone to get things done on the Amiga from a software perspective, even when there are so many coders eager to develop for the Amiga but cannot, since they do not code in out-of-fashion ways. If we want to "catch up" with the rest of the world and keep the Amiga alive, we need to walk towards the "insane", otherwise Amiga's legacy will be reduced to stories on webpages.
             
              I'm sorry to be pessimist, and I hope I'm really wrong but, all this effort from Apollo Team will be in vain and just a temporarily nostalgic echoing of the past if we cannot catch up with the new coding technologies. We need a major project using Kickstarter or Patreon or whatever else, dedicating to develop a solid coding platform.
         
    And the saddest thing about this is that the above will never happen because the Amiga community is fragmented and broken either by purism, ideals or personal preferences.
         
    At least most agree that the Vampire is an exciting product, too bad that not everyone shares this view (see the previous paragraph).
   
    -----------------------------------
    bool bAmigaCommunityUnified = false;
    threadGameLoop = new Thread(new ThreadStart(Engine_MainLoop));
    threadGameLoop.Start();
   
    private void Engine_MainLoop()
    {
        While (!bAmigaCommunityUnified)
        {
            Check_AmigaCommunityStatus();
        }
    }
   
    private bool Check_AmigaCommunityStatus()
    {
        If (DevelopmentPlatformExists())
            return true;
        else
            return false;
    }
 

 
Uhhh, let's step back to reality for a moment.  Purism, fragmentation and personal preferences aside, this is a hobby and it's delusional to think that Amigas (classics or NGs) will ever become mainstream.  That ship sailed around 1990 and it won't be returning back to port. 
 
And considering that C# ranks 11th on the list of most used programming languages it's even more unlikely that it will ever be ported to ANY Amiga platform.  EXTERNAL LINK   
Even if C# were ported to the Vampire the performance would be abysmal.  C# produces interpreted byte-code binaries.  If the 68080 ever moves to a real ASIC design, then it MIGHT be practical strictly from an engineering standpoint, but from an economic/business perspective, C# will never be ported to the Amiga for the same reasons that Microsoft Office will never be ported to the Amiga.  There is no market for it.
 


Gregthe Canuck

Posts 274
28 Sep 2017 01:37



It is all about doing things in the "Right" order, and we all have our personal opinions on that. :)

For example, as has been discussed before, there needs to be a decent set of "base" compiler support. That seems to mean a C compiler and an assembler. It is currently a big challenge to get a reasonably up to date GCC or VBCC compiler set up to support 68080 and not generate crappy code (more a GCC issue). But there are people working on this so that is a really good thing.

After that baseline of compiler support is there... what next?
  - More beginner-friendly/lightweight tools such as AMOS/*Basic*
  - Other language systems?
  - .NET is huge
  - Python and Java have had ports in the past (not sure on 68K)
  - The "Go" language from Google looks interesting. Very likely much easier to port than C#!!!

I am prepared to sponsor developers working on core tools such as GCC ports and I am sure others are as well. They are that important.

So there is my opinion... free. ;)



Fernando Pereira

Posts 68
28 Sep 2017 07:39


Steve Ferrell wrote:

     
    Uhhh, let's step back to reality for a moment.  Purism, fragmentation and personal preferences aside, this is a hobby and it's delusional to think that Amigas (classics or NGs) will ever become mainstream.  That ship sailed around 1990 and it won't be returning back to port. 
     
 

 
  I doubt Linux and MacOS will ever become mainstream too. I understand that the Amiga community is microscopic in comparison and as you say, it is just a hobby, which is unfortunate.
 
 
Steve Ferrell wrote:

 
  And considering that C# ranks 11th on the list of most used programming languages it's even more unlikely that it will ever be ported to ANY Amiga platform.
 
 

 
  10th place actually and scores twice as much as Objective-C and Swift combined, which is insane.
 
 
Steve Ferrell wrote:

 
  Even if C# were ported to the Vampire the performance would be abysmal.  C# produces interpreted byte-code binaries.  If the 68080 ever moves to a real ASIC design, then it MIGHT be practical strictly from an engineering standpoint, but from an economic/business perspective, C# will never be ported to the Amiga for the same reasons that Microsoft Office will never be ported to the Amiga.  There is no market for it.
   
 

 
  I said C# but it could be Ruby, Python or other languages. Heck it could be C/C++ BUT with a solid IDE. At this point just something that works and that is full featured, modern and supports the Vampire, anything but ASM.
 
  But yeah (back to reality) I understand that this won't happen in my life time, unless we all concentrate our efforts on this matter.. oh wait... Purism, fragmentation and personal preferences & nano-community... forget what I just typed...


Kolbjørn Barmen
(Needs Verification)
Posts 219/ 2
28 Sep 2017 10:40


Fernando Pereira wrote:

  I doubt Linux and MacOS will ever become mainstream too.

I can walk into any store selling consumer electronics and buy a Mac, how is that not mainstream?

Likewise, I can walk into the same consumer electronics stores and buy a Chromebook, Android tablet or D-Link or whatever wireless routers and NAS solutions running Linux.

How is this not mainstream?

I understand that the Amiga community is microscopic in comparison and as you say, it is just a hobby, which is unfortunate.

No, it is not unfortunate, it is result of evolution, AmigaOS is an old dinosaur that has no place in the modern world. Its only function is to be a toy for us retro nerds and geeks - the last thing I would ever want, is so called "mainstream" Amiga - can you imagine doing user support for Amiga? It is bad enough within this so called community, imagine what it would be like with thousands of "most users" - why on earth would you want that?!

I said C# but it could be Ruby, Python or other languages. Heck it could be C/C++ BUT with a solid IDE. At this point just something that works and that is full featured, modern and supports the Vampire, anything but ASM.

Why? If you find assembler scary, then coding explicitly for Vampire is not for you, that much should be obvious. What we have is what we got, use it.
   
But yeah (back to reality) I understand that this won't happen in my life time, unless we all concentrate our efforts on this matter.. oh wait... Purism, fragmentation and personal preferences & nano-community... forget what I just typed...

Purism is just an euphemism used by those who don't see compatibility issues as a problem, and who ironically now have 2-3 long threads on this very site about lack of development tools due to incompatibility issues.


Fernando Pereira

Posts 68
28 Sep 2017 11:12


Kolbjørn Barmen wrote:

      I can walk into any store selling consumer electronics and buy a Mac, how is that not mainstream?
                       
      Likewise, I can walk into the same consumer electronics stores and buy a Chromebook, Android tablet or D-Link or whatever wireless routers and NAS solutions running Linux.
                       
      How is this not mainstream?
                     

                     
      Linux and MacOS are not mainstream in the world of computers. The same way Windows phones aren't in the mobile world. It's not about how difficult you can purchase a particular type of hardware but the amount of people that buy them. Is the Ferrari a mainstream car brand? Semantics I guess.
                       
     
Kolbjørn Barmen wrote:

                     
      No, it is not unfortunate, it is result of evolution, AmigaOS is an old dinosaur that has no place in the modern world. Its only function is to be a toy for us retro nerds and geeks - the last thing I would ever want, is so called "mainstream" Amiga - can you imagine doing user support for Amiga? It is bad enough within this so called community, imagine what it would be like with thousands of "most users" - why on earth would you want that?!
                     
     

                     
      I think the problem is me getting high hopes with the Vampire hardware and then coming back to earth when realizing it's just dust in the air that will inevitably settle down to cover the old dinosaur, yet again. It breaks my heart...
                     
     
Kolbjørn Barmen wrote:

                     
      Why? If you find assembler scary, then coding explicitly for Vampire is not for you, that much should be obvious. What we have is what we got, use it.
                     
     

                     
I just find it extremely time consuming and frustrating when you already can code in other languages, combining with the fact that my coding skills count as absolutely nothing towards the effort. You're right, vampire coding is definitely not for me, it is quite obvious and what we have is what I don't want to use, which is also obvious. But who cares, right? Amiga it's just a hobby.
                         
     
Kolbjørn Barmen wrote:

                     
      Purism is just an euphemism used by those who don't see compatibility issues as a problem, and who ironically now have 2-3 long threads on this very site about lack of development tools due to incompatibility issues.
     

                     
      Purism is actually a term used around here by some of you to define a particular type of people that linger at other Amiga forums and that are against Vampire cards / methods that aren't executed in the old-fashioned-way. I replicated this term in such way. 


Mr Niding

Posts 459
28 Sep 2017 13:08


@Fernando Pereira

People do care about you as a potential developer, as Im sure the Apollo Team also does.

BUT there is limits to what for example the Apollo Team can do. There are only 24 hours in the day, and they are hard at work with the Core itself. Since they are fluent in Assembly, its not suprising they stick to that for the moment.
Expecting/hoping for them to develop languages is too much considering the extremely long "to do" list they have Core-wise.

But people most certainly want YOU (and others) to code for the Amiga (Vampire spesific or not), but it falls upon each and one of those that want to use the Amiga OS to work within the current limitations, and expand the capabilities.

Take Jari. He decided to teach himself Assembly by deciding upon a project to push himself, namely the Soft FPU.

Maybe you decide against ASM, but rather go for one of the higher level languages. They might not CURRENTLY support the Vampire, but if the developer of said language is still active/communicating, then poking him/her for the possibility of Vampire support is an option.
Additionally; even if you dont spesifically target the Vampire instructionset, but rather develop generically for AOS, but utilizing the higher performance available to the Vampire. Be it CPU, RAM speed, RTG etc. If the language of choice at a later stage support Vampire instructions, then you could patch said program...?

Anyhow, my 2 NONcoder cents.


Fernando Pereira

Posts 68
28 Sep 2017 13:37


Mr Niding wrote:

    @Fernando Pereira
   
    People do care about you as a potential developer, as Im sure the Apollo Team also does.
   
    BUT there is limits to what for example the Apollo Team can do. There are only 24 hours in the day, and they are hard at work with the Core itself. Since they are fluent in Assembly, its not suprising they stick to that for the moment.
    Expecting/hoping for them to develop languages is too much considering the extremely long "to do" list they have Core-wise.
   
    But people most certainly want YOU (and others) to code for the Amiga (Vampire spesific or not), but it falls upon each and one of those that want to use the Amiga OS to work within the current limitations, and expand the capabilities.
   
    Take Jari. He decided to teach himself Assembly by deciding upon a project to push himself, namely the Soft FPU.
   
    Maybe you decide against ASM, but rather go for one of the higher level languages. They might not CURRENTLY support the Vampire, but if the developer of said language is still active/communicating, then poking him/her for the possibility of Vampire support is an option.
    Additionally; even if you dont spesifically target the Vampire instructionset, but rather develop generically for AOS, but utilizing the higher performance available to the Vampire. Be it CPU, RAM speed, RTG etc. If the language of choice at a later stage support Vampire instructions, then you could patch said program...?
   
    Anyhow, my 2 NONcoder cents.
   

   
    Hey Niding, please, understand that I'm not implying that Apollo Team should be the ones taking responsibility for creating developing tools. I just called out the community hoping someone would be willing to through a paid method such as Patreon or Kickstarter. Nothing else.
   
    I decided against ASM exactly because as you said, days have only 24h and I rather use my spare daily hour I have to invest in my own commercial projects.
   
    I teach myself coding also, so I know from experience how time consuming that can be, and I'm talking about high languages (Visual Basic & C#). I can't imagine trying to do the same with ASM with so few tutorials and examples available.
   
    It's just frustrating wanting to develop to the Amiga platform and not being able to deliver anything without incredible hassle and this is no one's fault. I truly admire what the Apollo Team is trying to do here.


Grzegorz Wójcik (pisklak
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 87
28 Sep 2017 15:27


I think that right now, when we do not have support for 080 in any high level languages, we can as always mix ASM (with AMMX) and C/E/PureBasic etc. Later I hope some higher level languages may get support for new CPU stuff (I think VBCC may be 1st) . But for max speed usage of hand writtten ASM routines will be required anyway I guess...


Fernando Pereira

Posts 68
28 Sep 2017 16:06


Grzegorz Wójcik (pisklak wrote:

I think that right now, when we do not have support for 080 in any high level languages, we can as always mix ASM (with AMMX) and C/E/PureBasic etc. Later I hope some higher level languages may get support for new CPU stuff (I think VBCC may be 1st) . But for max speed usage of hand writtten ASM routines will be required anyway I guess...

I guess you are right.

For me, the Vampire project is NOT a mare hobby, it is an opportunity to revive the platform that granted me the best times I ever had in front of a computer screen. It really means a lot to me, hence my frustration. :)


Eric Gus

Posts 477
28 Sep 2017 17:24


I know the AMOS Factory is working on a new "AMOS Pro 68k" .. I do hope they will be able to work in some of the new vampire specific features, but right now it seems like that might be our best hope for a high-level language with any chance of supporting the 080 .. its (afaik) the only 68k high level language actively being worked on as we are discussing this very topic, the others are just either abandoned or not very active (for their 68k versions)..  As we have all learned over the past few decades, software/applications can make or break a platform (look at iOS/Android vs WindowsMobile) .. So its pretty crucial to get some decent tools into the hands of average developers and avoid needed to hand code special asm instructions .. That said, I agree with the list previously mentioned of a priority order in terms of getting a proper tool chain going, first an assembler that has extensions that support the 080/AMMX instructions, then a mid level language like C ,, etc.. without good mid to high level coding tools that the average developer can use, I suspect all these wonderful extensions to the 080 will go mostly unused or ignored due to lack of any language support.


Kolbjørn Barmen
(Needs Verification)
Posts 219/ 2
28 Sep 2017 18:02


Now you start sounding like a "purist" :)


Fernando Pereira

Posts 68
28 Sep 2017 18:09


eric gus wrote:

    I know the AMOS Factory is working on a new "AMOS Pro 68k" .. I do hope they will be able to work in some of the new vampire specific features, but right now it seems like that might be our best hope for a high-level language with any chance of supporting the 080 .. its (afaik) the only 68k high level language actively being worked on as we are discussing this very topic, the others are just either abandoned or not very active (for their 68k versions)..  As we have all learned over the past few decades, software/applications can make or break a platform (look at iOS/Android vs WindowsMobile) .. So its pretty crucial to get some decent tools into the hands of average developers and avoid needed to hand code special asm instructions .. That said, I agree with the list previously mentioned of a priority order in terms of getting a proper tool chain going, first an assembler that has extensions that support the 080/AMMX instructions, then a mid level language like C ,, etc.. without good mid to high level coding tools that the average developer can use, I suspect all these wonderful extensions to the 080 will go mostly unused or ignored due to lack of any language support.
   

   
    Yap. That makes sense. Naturally, we cannot move directly towards developing high level coding tools, we need to lay sturdy foundations first and raise the floors one at the time, all this to achieve that ultimate goal. A solid C solution using all the Vampire features would already make me very happy; happy enough to force myself to learn some C!

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