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Running Games and Apps.

Huno Wants a Vampirepage  1 2 

Gregthe Canuck

Posts 274
30 May 2017 10:16


I don't understand the current obsession with 3D.

There are so many things left to "get right" before even going near 3D.


Mr-Z EdgeOfPanic

Posts 185
30 May 2017 12:14


gregthe canuck wrote:

I don't understand the current obsession with 3D.
 
  There are so many things left to "get right" before even going near 3D.

Yes very true.



Thierry Atheist

Posts 618
30 May 2017 12:48


I was talking about 3D, what I felt it should be, however, I'm not asking for it "now".

We still need the other things they want to do, first.


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 770
30 May 2017 16:19


Its both nostalgia and future.
   
    All other things are "being work in progress" or resolved.
   
    Its important when it come to games,
    and even Warp3D isnt really full OpenGL
    it is base of MESA and other 68k projects.
   
    In the end, its acessable and existing 3D library
    and is Amiga 68k software. Its last area to real
    full Classic compatibility, once FPU is done (MMU requiring
    or supporting apps are few)
   
    Amitropia w3d showoff got muted by You Tube (c) police,
    but yet shows what Vampire could also do, just with hw
    w3d driver of similar speed of gfx cards of that time
    (Voodo or Virge or Radeon 7000-9000).
 
    EXTERNAL LINK 
    Some integrated chip
    for 3D, like SAM440 used to have Radeon 9000 Mobility would
    resolve3D part. If its to be standalone board with no real PC
    expansion it would be wise to chip in 3D, be it in FPGA or why shame - separate chip.
 
  At least I would pay more for such version. And you?
 
  (Standalone is coming next after A1200 version)

P.S. Other viable option could be MESA AROS SAGA 68k on AROS as main OS or accelerated software emulation - warp3D (wazp3d) that would achive the same. I mention real chips or FPGA implementation as solution if that doesnt work satisfactory enough or is proven impossible.


Cyber Gorf
(Needs Verification)
Posts 39/ 1
30 May 2017 18:01


>Some integrated chip
  >    for 3D, like SAM440 used to have Radeon 9000 Mobility would
  >    resolve3D part. If its to be standalone board with no real PC
  >    expansion it would be wise to chip in 3D, be it in FPGA or why shame - separate chip.
  > 
  >  At least I would pay more for such version. And you?
 
  No - I would not. To be honest I am not interested in any late 90s 3D-Card support.
  There are just a few (bad) ports, that support that kind of 3D-graphics anyway... next to none original Amiga game or software does.
 
  If you want fancy 3D-Games, get yourself a PlayStation or a WinPC.
 
  A accelerated waZp3D-software-renderer should provide enough 3D for simple use cases...
  WaZp3D is open source, so it is fine and all good - no need for any commercial version, be it software or hardware.
 
  Much more interesting:
  Ed Helper published his plans for the Amiga-Hombre chipset (post AAA).
  There is a nice feature, that could probably done in SAGA "quite easy":
 
  - 2 * 256 24 bit CLUTs (SAGA has this already!)
  - 4 play fields (we have 3? right now?)
  - Each playfield can be scrolled, scaled and positioned (thats need, isn't it?)
  - Hardware playfield scaling ranges from 0.5 to 16x in increments of 1/16
 
  that would allow a lot of pseudo-3D zoom and pan Effekts...
 
  EXTERNAL LINK


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 770
30 May 2017 18:26



Its OK to improve AGA chipset, but it certainly has a limit.
  If that limit can be pushed to warp3d openGL subset or beyond (so there would be some 3D standard) and also (speedwise) beyond what 3dfx Voodo or Radeons were able to perform, in time, with RTG supported too, that is great thing, and no naggin needed.
 
  Would be revolutionary to finally have Amiga with 3D out of box.
  But I dont see it even planned.
 
  HOMBRE PLANNED FEATURES
 
  This sounds tempting on 3D side even CBM planned
 
  * An advanced DMA engine and blitter with 3D texture mapping and gouraud shading
  * a fill rate of 30 million 3D rendered pixels per second (similar to Sony's PlayStation performance)
  * 3D texture mapping engine
  * Gouraud shading
  * Z-buffering
  * YUV compatibility with JPEG support
  * Standard TV and HDTV compatibility
  * 64-bit internal data bus and registers
 
  That kind of SAGA+ would be great.
 
  Leaving basically just 2D would really return
  us to some really pseudo 3D.
 
  Which would become serious limit of Vampire as soon
  as other features mature.
 
  Hopefully, no PA Risc transition and option to use Windows NT4 :-)

Warp3D is historically H&Ps "de facto" 3D standard
EXTERNAL LINK 
YOU ARE VERY RIGHT There isnt much 68k Warp3D/StormMESA apps,
but there has to be some standard to start with.

Commercial 68k+W3D

PAYBACK! Uses Warp3d and is 68k
DESCENT FREESPACE /Hype
TORNADO 3D latest updated might use it (unconfirmed)

Free games and tools 68k+Warp3d

Descent EXTERNAL LINK 
BlitzQuake EXTERNAL LINK  Cow3D test EXTERNAL LINK 
Floyd Steinberg dithering (FPU needed) EXTERNAL LINK 
kas1s lame intro EXTERNAL LINK 
Microbe 3D Engine
EXTERNAL LINK 
Neonbars plug for AmigaAmp EXTERNAL LINK 
Sculpt3D EXTERNAL LINK 
Vague disk mag EXTERNAL LINK 
3D Pairs EXTERNAL LINK 
Check Your w3D effects list EXTERNAL LINK 
Draw a textured spaceship EXTERNAL LINK 
Have a GL Matrix screensaver EXTERNAL LINK 

But there are OS4/WOS Warp3D AmigaOS apps and games that could be easier backported

Rebus demo (MKD)
WarpViewer - nice picture viewer (WOS)
Lightwave objects wiewer (WOS)
Wings Remastered (Cineware)
Tower 57 (In Progress)
Quake 2 (Hype)
Shogo (Hype)
World of Padman (Huno)
Enemy Territory: Legacy (Huno)
Aliens versus Predator 2000 (Huno)
Tremulous FPS/RTS (Huno)
Darkplaces Quake 1 Engine (Huno)
Quake 2 HD textures (Huno)
StarTrek Voyager - Elite Force (Huno)
Urban Terror (Huno)
Smoking Guns (Huno)
Hurrican (Huno)
Frogatto & Friends (Huno)
Gish (Huno)
Wings Battlefield (Cherry Darling)
Face 3D - nice plug in for AmigaAmp
GL Sokoban WOS
Wipeout 2097
Heretic II (Hype)

In other trivia, one of few Amiga technologies
seen as useful for integration to mythical "AmigaDE" 2001
EXTERNAL LINK 


Cyber Gorf
(Needs Verification)
Posts 39/ 1
30 May 2017 18:38


I was explicitly NOT talking about the 3D part of Homre.
 
  The 2D and zoom features are quite interesting and are probably a good fit for SAGA ... somewhat next year.
 
  Please let's put that whole 3D-thing on ice. Not important right now. Maybe never.
 
  > Which would become serious limit of Vampire as soon
  > as other features mature.
 
  No - Why would it?
  The only real application for hardware 3D are games. And there are no real Amiga-games supporting that - just some ports. Play them on PS ore Win or whatever!
 
  We can not compete with modern 3D-cards anyway - competing with 20 years old Voodoo is nonsense. Lets concentrate on Amiga-compatibility and some Amiga-like upgrades like Pamela ...
 
 
 


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 770
30 May 2017 19:26


I have seen you have looked just to 2D advancements in Hombre.
 
  I believe 3D can be somewhat used in effects, in 2D games as effects (looks great with handrawn gfx and 16 bit audio), maybe some rendering software, as shown in past AmigaAmp effects, viewers, diskmags, demos ... and would be a nice touch. I ve seen a StormMESA MUI custom class EXTERNAL LINK  Seems like 3D came to Amiga in its last days.
 
I have a PS3 for that use, but has nothing to do with wish for S-AGA to be "super" in having some standardized 3D or alternative working 3D.  Basic subset like Warp3D / Glide was, existing for m68k. Its not intended to compete with current gfx cards, but to have a basic basic 3D abilities.
 
  But I accept your answer as fully reasonable. Case REALLY Closed as long as I am concern. Huno will be sad, but he has 2D games to port and past RTG experience :-)

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