Overview Features Instructions Performance Forum Downloads Products OrderV4 Reseller Contact

Welcome to the Apollo Forum

This forum is for people interested in the APOLLO CPU.
Please read the forum usage manual.
VISIT APOLLO IRC CHANNEL



All TopicsNewsPerformanceGamesDemosApolloVampireAROSWorkbenchATARIReleases
Running Games and Apps.

Huno Wants a Vampirepage  1 2 

Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 770
28 May 2017 22:16


ASKING FOR INTEREST

Hi Huno,

Apollo team is landing Vampires on "to do basis"
If you have a Classic A500/A600/A2000 somewhere
and want to do some backports good coders are needed
CLICK HERE 
Sometime this year standalone Vampire is expected.

Downside of Vampire is no Warp3D now,
only RTG and very soon speeded up AGA but compatibile,
known since Natami days as SAGA.

It also requires personal setup of OS 3.9BB2 with patches,
but due to legal limits there isnt any software package.
Just few Vampire related tools and all is up to Classic user.

In time its likely 68k AROS will be its main OS
due to OS 3.x legal limits of no development possibilities
and 3D might come out of there.

Upside is it really generated interest and in non commerical ways
a lot of people started to revive 68k scene. Due to Classic community
size, there are few thousands users already, something NG community
can only dream of. Compatibility is sooo great out of box (currently OCS/RTG but soon AGA even on non AGA systems A500-A600-A2000-A1000 and A1200 edition is soon out) as well as solutions
to Classic bootlenecks. Only Internet remains on user, but

Basic info and discussion
CLICK HERE 
More mature presentation
EXTERNAL LINK 
Wiki database compatibilty and tools
EXTERNAL LINK 
Porting an 2D title might be far easier.

HUNOS ANSWER

Hello,
  First of all, I would like to thank you for your interest in my work for the Amiga.
  To answer your questions:
  Yes I have the whole range of CLASSICS Amiga commodore, on the other hand I do not have VAMPIRE and my current budget does not allow me to get one (purchase of an X5000 recently).
  Yes RTG I know very well that's where I made my first coding.
  Is Warp3D support planned ?? It will be much more interesting anyway and will open new doors to porting.
  In the end, what do you expect from me for the VAMPIRE ??
  Thank you for your answers
  PS: I went to see the forum, there are actually a lot of people who move.
  Good night
 
  A+
 
  Hunoppc
 
  Site Dev AmigaOS4: EXTERNAL LINK 
  or  EXTERNAL LINK 
  Amiga French Team NG PowerPC


Matthew Langtry

Posts 169
29 May 2017 13:06


is it not warp3d is power pc only ?

EXTERNAL LINK


Wawa T

Posts 695
29 May 2017 13:27


no.


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 770
29 May 2017 14:02


No. Its more visible in software, try Warp3D or w3d on Aminet and see foryourself. Some commercial ports of games that used w3d were ppc only or were able to use ppc. But then try warp3d or w3d on os4 depot and you will see less w3d software/games came in OS4 era (Sadly) even 3d hardware became de facto standard on AmigaOnes.

Most updated versions as well as "warp3d nova" are PPC only but they are even not 100% compatibile with most used Warp3D in old software games, and needs a bit of patching when running old apps.
EXTERNAL LINK     
    Problem in our Vampire is that it is for A500/A600/soon A1200 that cant attach it and gfx card or gfx cards are rare/expensive and we would like some 3D.
   
    So we need "Warp3D over AGA or by CPU". First existed for PPC sadly only and second exists as slower software emulation (also used in WinUAE, PPC amigas with no w3d compatibile gfx, whoever doesnt have a real gfx card) EXTERNAL LINK     
    Surely, best would be Vampire native w3d driver, but ... owner
    of w3d license is not aware of potential interest, not interested, not having manpower etc.
   
    Also having a w3d driver for chipset in Vampire FPGA would make a standalone with "integrated 3d gfx" so you wouldnt (initally) have to buy gfx card (if it is supposed to have PCI slots at all) - this is all distant future now, but its good to think of it.
 
  Sidenote: I see Vampire (current design) can be expanded. So W3d compatibile gfx card (e.g. emulating super fast Voodo chipset :-) would be a solution. Here might come Ethernet
  EXTERNAL LINK 
  Sidenote: seems WaZp3D is also able to use 68881 if present.So once we get 68881 compatibile FPU (next core release? :-) software emulation might get better
 
  There is a guide for UAE users, but relates to 68k executables
 
  "IMPORTANT Wazp3D is not perfect but it was good enough for me :-) This Wazp3D
  binary is intended to be used within a very fast 68040 AmigaOS (= UAE emulator
  with JIT like WinUAE) This Wazp3D binary is compiled for 68020/40-68881 (adjust
  your WinUAE settings) Also need "full screen RTG" & JIT both to be activated to
  obtain enough speed (also need picasso 96/cybergraphics and a 32 bits screen)
  Wazp3D is NOT an UAE hack and so (should) not depend on a particular UAE version
  But it only need much speed for his software rendering Some 3Dprogs need a big
  stack to be able to run without crash (glsokoban,etc...)"


Olaf Schoenweiss

Posts 593
29 May 2017 14:16


really, that is not the idea behind Vampire/Apollo

The idea is to have a standardized 68k platform so that your software runs on all platforms without changes, be it vampire in amiga or standalone

adding graphic cards would break the concepts, even if you could add one who will develop drivers for it. It makes no real sense. What might be possible is to improve Thelliers Open Source implementation of Stormmesa with optimized asm routines specific for Apollo. Everything else is just wishful thinking, similar to the discusses if and when Amiga OS 3.1 will be open sourced or if Hyperion backports 4.X to 68k. People should accept the situation and I think it is not that bad at the moment. Warp3D was bought by A-eon and development also is financed by a-eon. We all know that Trevor is a big 4.X supporter and not that much interested in 68k stuff. I do not think that he would finance 68k port of Nova.


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 770
29 May 2017 14:23


For time being, seeing how Taliers software emulation can be
  improved would be good enough and would offer
  a standardized 68k platform WITH 3D. Not greatest one, but some.
 
  There is one wazp3d 68k library but Taliers mentiones 020/040+68881 optimizations for UAE.
 
  About official w3d - When Vampire market becomes bigger, that might change. I believe it would be theirs financial interest to have such a product for AmiStore 68k (that would also work on Vampire) and as similar product to their RadeonHD driver, as more products and from its profit they could fund future OS4 voyage. So if you change "versus" stance, its a win win.
 
  Other possible route is simpler - license and FPGA any of w3d supported chips, or provide them on some Vampire standalone board. If not, leave a PCI slot and users could provide them (Radeon 9200, Voodoo etc.).


Olaf Schoenweiss

Posts 593
29 May 2017 14:31


using 68k sales to finance deficit development (OS4) will not work. People are only buying if they are offering something new and I do not care if most of the efforts were needed to get it working on PPC. That happened on Personal Paint that not offers much new on 68k, the main feature is that it runs on OS4 PPC native. That is not interesting to me. If the amiga market would be business money would go where the potential customers are, the 68k market and not PPC. But it is a hobby market. If they really port Nova to Apollo then noone will have a problem with it, some will buy, others not. But preinstalled should be something free and open.


Wawa T

Posts 695
29 May 2017 14:42



Taliers

thats thellier, alain thellier.

alains wazp3d is working as accelerated wrapper in winuae. similarly its been implemented in aros being wrapper to accelerated mesa. however its not up to date anymore and it had almost no sense on aros x86, as ther ie no software for it.

i dont think alain has time to share with us, even if you sponsored him wiat a free vampire. thats hao i perceive him. you want w3d, you have to find someone else to build upon his work.


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 770
29 May 2017 14:42


Is it OK that Huno is eligible for a Vampire loan if he does 2D ports? We might lose the momentum of interest of a nice coder.

Go for warp3d. I do understand your logic and agree with it,
but same people would buy something new for Classics and new for NGs and those who have just classics, just that. So its possible to have both markets where larger (Classic) finances the other.

Vampire gives them oportunity and target to example update PPaint to OS4 level at least and offer a OS3 product, Ehancer and W3D Nova too (except w3d nova was build for Radeon Southern Islands only).

I am ager to see what they will do with Octamed, Alladin
and ImageFX, PP wasnt much of my thing.If they would do advanced
OS3 ports would be great.


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 770
29 May 2017 14:43


@Wawa

Thellier, pardon mon francais :-)
  Can you please contact him and see is he willing to share sources? His work is our last hope of 3D :-)


Olaf Schoenweiss

Posts 593
29 May 2017 15:13


I am not aware of substantial improvements on 68k regarding Personal Paint, I think that it runs on RTG was the most obvious one. Most of the efforts certainly was needed to rework source codes for modern compilers and adapt it to OS4 to get it running native there. But that is no reason to buy it as long as you are not OS4 user. I think they mentioned 500 sells to cover costs, if they would have concentrated on the 68k versions being able to also run on 4.X and MorphOS they would have had a chance to cover costs and even earn money. Of course that also would mean not to use ReAction for GUI that is not available everywhere and closed. But that was not the concept, they want to sell the expensive hardware with new software but I do not think that this will work. Buying old sources is the cheapest part, in this sense I do not expect any software from them but we will see.


Wawa T

Posts 695
29 May 2017 15:22


Vojin Vidanovic wrote:

  @Wawa
 
  Thellier, pardon mon francais :-)
    Can you please contact him and see is he willing to share sources? His work is our last hope of 3D :-)
 

  the sources have been open to anybody who cares since ever:
  EXTERNAL LINK


Wawa T

Posts 695
29 May 2017 15:24


Olaf Schoenweiss wrote:

I am not aware of substantial improvements on 68k regarding Personal Paint, I think that it runs on RTG was the most obvious one.

personal paint was working with rtg to start with afair.


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 4542
29 May 2017 17:22


OK to answer many topics..

If someone is seriously interest in writing software for AMIGA but can not effort a Vampire then he/she can get into contact with us and we can talk about a loaner card.

Regarding 3D stuff I think its more sensible to focus on strong points  of the Vampire - which you can fully utilize today.
I would not focus on 3D coding today - you will be depending on beta cores from the CPU-team. Which creates dependencies and also stalls if you get no update core. This creates unneeded frustrations.
Better use the powers and features that are already released in stable cores.
 
 




Thierry Atheist

Posts 618
29 May 2017 22:37


Olaf Schoenweiss wrote:
really, that is not the idea behind Vampire/Apollo

The idea is to have a standardized 68k platform so that your software runs on all platforms without changes, be it vampire in amiga or standalone

adding graphic cards would break the concepts, even if you could add one who will develop drivers for it. It makes no real sense.

I would MUCH rather have AMIGA based audio, rather than an audio card bolted on, and even though they have 1024 bit GPUs with 8 GB of DDR5, I would RATHER HAVE >AMIGA< based 3D hardware accelerated CHIP RAM solutions implemented.

Why? COMPATIBILITY!!!!!!!!

Rather than umpteen amounts of drivers for the crazy amounts of variable cards that could be used with the system... WHO'S GOING TO WRITE ALL THOSE, anyway?


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 770
30 May 2017 03:55



@Therry

Audio is in the works, SAGA is AGA/RTG compatibile, seems Warp3D will come via software emulation. Nothing to be upset, its going just as you say. Bigger FPGA, if they ever decided to do so, for standalone (meaning higher price also) could alliviate the video frequency prob, maybe accomodate some extras.

In my humble opinion what original Amiga concept yet needs is a 3D chip and it would be best to be some already old w3d compatibile one - in FPGA, onboard in PCI slot. Drivers do exist.
 
But that is just me. I ll drop the subject, its not on
developers list (yet). One day in future.

No need to yell (BIG LETTERS!) :-)

Btw, completely blacklisted by AW.net, no more pvt messages.

@Gunnar

I ve told Huno to apply for loan scheme via Apollo Accelerators contact form, hope its OK.


Thierry Atheist

Posts 618
30 May 2017 05:35


Vojin Vidanovic wrote:
Btw, completely blacklisted by AW.net, no more pvt messages.

Hi Vojin

Are you sure? Maybe your PM inbox is full?

Oh, and, the Vampire order page, JUST CROSSED 2,500!!!!!

I know, I know, that page is probably not applicable anymore because sales will go through AmigaKit store in England from now on I suppose?

I predict, 7,000 to 8,000 Vampires sold by Dec. 2018!

P.S. Oooohhhhh, 3D custom chipRAM Amiga style GPU!!!!!!! :-D


Thierry Atheist

Posts 618
30 May 2017 05:41


"Huno Wants a Vampire"?

Know who else "wants a Vampire"?

Dave Haynie, will probably get a Vampire too!!!

He said so on facebook!!!!!!


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 770
30 May 2017 08:35


Sure, cant post in pvt, ip blacklisted.

I was for celebrities to get it last :-)


Nixus Minimax

Posts 415
30 May 2017 09:38


Vojin Vidanovic wrote:
In my humble opinion what original Amiga concept yet needs is a 3D chip

Gunnar and friends made a 3D unit for the Natami. It's more likely that this will reappear in some future Vampire (certainly not the V2) than some off the shelf 3D chip. Until then 3D is the lowest of all priorities.


posts 28page  1 2