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OpenGL On Vampire Cardspage  1 2 3 4 5 6 

Mallagan Bellator

Posts 380
15 Sep 2017 20:33


Gunnar von Boehn wrote:

Mallagan Bellator wrote:

  First of all, I heard that doom was the first game to include a real 3d engine, "unlike Wolfenstein 3d".
 

 
  Real 3D engines are games like
  ELITE, STAR-GLIDER, VIRUS ...
 
 
  DOOM and CASTLE-WOLFENSTEIN are similar in math.
  And both "cheat" a little on the 3D calculation to run faster.
 
  Quake uses more complex math.

All true, but as far as I'm concerned, as long as you can move around in a 3 dimensional environment and make maps the way you can in doom, it's 3d. Even though the tecnical definition software wise is 2.5D, you can't make complex 3d objects like in quake, you can't look up or down, and you can't tilt your head, still it's not super Mario 1 :)



Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 770
15 Sep 2017 22:11


Mallagan Bellator wrote:

            All true, but as far as I'm concerned, as long as you can move around in a 3 dimensional environment and make maps the way you can in doom, it's 3d. Even though the tecnical definition software wise is 2.5D, you can't make complex 3d objects like in quake, you can't look up or down, and you can't tilt your head, still it's not super Mario 1 :)
         

         
          In Heretic series, Rise Of Triad, Shadow Warrior and Duke "3D" these limits were pushed further then in original Doom, that never really impressed.
         
          Bezond engine and Team Fortress, Quake impressed me with its mythical and medivial elements, even lack of reasonable storyline. I wished they had kept it Aztec. We need such engine, that was then again improved, Vampirized and some Quake successor in spirit, since Quake 2/3/4 arent it.
         
          Plus we do need Team Fortress. Really. Hope ApolloFPU will give it to Quake 68k as well as further SAGA Picasso speedons. OpenGL, Warp3D are just tools and speedons. If Glide can be ported to 080, SAGA and MMX2 that could also be great and retro touch aid.
 
 
Gunnar von Boehn wrote:

  Real 3D engines are games like
  ELITE, STAR-GLIDER, VIRUS ...
  Quake uses more complex math.
 
       
 
  Those could be also "revamped". There was an openworld 3D isometric
  game too ... 1 A500 floppy to I amazement ...
HUNTER EXTERNAL LINK  HAL EXTERNAL LINK 
And even Guardian CD32
  and Robocop 3D >:-) EXTERNAL LINK  EXTERNAL LINK 
  I also loved the "3D isometric" platform and adventure era with ... D-Generation >:-)
 
          One more title, Elite Frontier FE would be nice. OpenGL exists as backwared engineering and game looked great even on Davids engine. New Frontier is big fail with no offline mode, so it remains the best Elite. CD ROM edit exists, and is much more to CD32 one we have now. These two would be VVV titles and could attract various gamers too. Its 1995 title that worked on 386DX FPU 8MB expanded RAM, DOS 6.2 or so ... Amiga intro could be ehanced and kept, and please replace PC MIDI DOS music with Pamela sound :-)
        EXTERNAL LINK        as much as SAGA and others can bear, it should strive towards openGL look EXTERNAL LINK         
      Gunship 2000 continuation on PC, Gunship! failed, but is actually nice. Havin e.g. Comanche style Voxel "3D" engine in it could also bring militarists and sim lovers back
    EXTERNAL LINK   
    P.S. What is viability of MESA AROS backported to 68k AROS and SAGA?  There it seems it even have Linux drivers GLU 19.0 Mesa OpenCL some RadeonHDs dream of? Surely Galliums are Stevens promise, but before that it seems there was a Port of Mesa 7.0 with "acceptable performance" EXTERNAL LINK


Chris Dennett

Posts 67
16 Sep 2017 11:27


I would recommend Pioneer space sim, but it may be too heavy on the CPU to run well. EXTERNAL LINK


Nicolas Sipieter
(Needs Verification)
Posts 115/ 1
16 Sep 2017 12:32


@chris dennet

what's the use of going to space, if you cannot explore planets ?
i much prefer even old school sega genesis title: 'starflight' and
  dos game 'star control2'.

at least on those games you get to land on alien worlds, extract minerals, create colonies, feel the local conditions, like gravity, weather, elements.

i don't understand all those space games where you cannot explore alien world. what's the use of going into space if not for discovering new worlds ?

EXTERNAL LINK  EXTERNAL LINK 



Samuel Crow

Posts 360
16 Sep 2017 15:12


nicolas sipieter wrote:

@chris dennet
 
  what's the use of going to space, if you cannot explore planets ?
  i much prefer even old school sega genesis title: 'starflight' and
  dos game 'star control2'.
 
  at least on those games you get to land on alien worlds, extract minerals, create colonies, feel the local conditions, like gravity, weather, elements.
 
  i don't understand all those space games where you cannot explore alien world. what's the use of going into space if not for discovering new worlds ?
 
  EXTERNAL LINK  EXTERNAL LINK 

The second one you listed has been rereleased as open source using SDL.  (See SourceForge.net for the download.)  It doesn't require OpenGL either.



Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 770
16 Sep 2017 15:30


nicolas sipieter wrote:

  i don't understand all those space games where you cannot explore alien world. what's the use of going into space if not for discovering new worlds ?

Must say Space Rogue is great Elite/adventure crossover >:-)
EXTERNAL LINK 
Out of 2D action never forget
NARCs EXTERNAL LINK

SWAT
EXTERNAL LINK 
and Shadow Warrior, improved shinobi and other Ninja games
EXTERNAL LINK 

And out of digitalized beat em up, Pit Fighter was a class
EXTERNAL LINK 
using Arcade versions not Amiga versions, as something we should strive for.


Andrew Copland

Posts 109
16 Sep 2017 18:58


Chris Dennett wrote:

I would recommend Pioneer space sim, but it may be too heavy on the CPU to run well. EXTERNAL LINK 

I too would recommend Pioneer Space Sim because I'm heavily involved with it :D

However, it's actually pretty graphically intense, needs shaders etc.
There is some support for OpenGL 2.1 but really it lacks some features so by default it uses OpenGL 3.x (x == a mix of extensions).

The other thing is that we make use of multi-threading for a lot of the terrain generation. You really need a multi-core CPU and a couple of gigahertz to get the best out of it.


Andrew Copland

Posts 109
16 Sep 2017 19:03


nicolas sipieter wrote:

@chris dennet
 
  what's the use of going to space, if you cannot explore planets ?
  i much prefer even old school sega genesis title: 'starflight' and
  dos game 'star control2'.
 
  at least on those games you get to land on alien worlds, extract minerals, create colonies, feel the local conditions, like gravity, weather, elements.
 
  i don't understand all those space games where you cannot explore alien world. what's the use of going into space if not for discovering new worlds ?

I agree, and it's something that I'm working on for Pioneer, to make them more interesting worlds with things on them to investigate but that's a long term plan.

The trouble is that doing it in 2D or with a limited iso-metric view is really easy. Doing all that in 3D is much much much harder.

I mean you can land on the planets in Pioneer, and there's some odd/interesting scenery, plus cities, Search & Rescue missions too. However there's nothing much more you can do currently.


Steve Ferrell

Posts 378
25 Aug 2018 01:53


@Norbert Kett

Hi Norbert.  Any progress with TinyGL?  TinyGL seems like a great choice for implementing OpenGL on the Vampire provided it can be optimized for the 68080.  I don't yet have a Vampire but downloaded and compiled the code for MS-DOS and ran the examples under DOS-Box.  I also noticed that the MorphOS team had compiled a version for MOS.  It would be interesting to see if the MOS version could be backported to the Vampire with 080 optimizations as well. It seems to be more feature rich.

TinyGL MOS:  EXTERNAL LINK 
Original code:  EXTERNAL LINK 
TinyGL on Aminet:  EXTERNAL LINK


Daniel Sevo

Posts 285
06 Nov 2018 22:36


Hello, first of all, I'm also interested in hearing how this went... Especially considering Gunnars recent comments about adding Voodoo rasterizer functionality ;-)
And more specifically, Im curious, does TinyGL have the same  limitations that the first GL Quake had related to texture size limits? I belive GL Quake actually supported 512x512 sized maps but first Voodoo would only run 256x256 sized textures. Back then, Graphics memory was tiny, but compared to any Vampire, it would be cool to be able to make nice Quake maps using lots of 512x512 textures ;-)




Steve Ferrell

Posts 378
21 Jan 2019 21:12


Norbert Kett seems to have disappeared or at least isn't following this thread anymore so I decided to investigate other OpenGL alternatives to TinyGL since Norbert hasn't responded to any questions.  Storm Mesa looks interesting but I don't yet own a Vampire and I was wondering if anyone has had a chance to try Storm Mesa or TinyGL on the newer cores that have FPU support.  On older cores without FPU support, TinyGL was very disappointing as seen in this video running GL versions of Quake and Doom:  EXTERNAL LINK 
It would be interesting to see if Storm Mesa's performance is better/worse than that of TinyGL's on the newer cores.  It would also be nice to know if either of these libraries will take advantage of the Vampire's future 3D support.
 
I suspect the 3D engine in future Vampire cores will be 3DFX/GLide compatible and support a subset of OpenGL 1.2 but only Gunnar knows for sure and he's been tight-lipped about it.
 
Anyway, it would be nice to see some videos of either of these API's in action on newer cores if anyone has the time and resources to post them.


Thellier Alain

Posts 116
22 Jan 2019 12:47


Hello

>Vampire cores will be 3DFX/GLide

I dont know about Gunnar plans but Amigas never used or implemented a 3DFX/GLide API so it will certainly not be used in Vampire too

Most of the existing Amiga 68k 3D programs use MiniGL that use only Warp3D as driver. So having a Warp3D implementation would make sense...
StormMesa can render as software or use Warp3D as driver too.

Note: TinyGL, MiniGL, StormMesa, Mesa3D are OpenGL implémentations

 



Steve Ferrell

Posts 378
22 Jan 2019 17:09


thellier alain wrote:

    Hello
   
    >Vampire cores will be 3DFX/GLide
   
    I dont know about Gunnar plans but Amigas never used or implemented a 3DFX/GLide API so it will certainly not be used in Vampire too
   
    Most of the existing Amiga 68k 3D programs use MiniGL that use only Warp3D as driver. So having a Warp3D implementation would make sense...
    StormMesa can render as software or use Warp3D as driver too.
   
    Note: TinyGL, MiniGL, StormMesa, Mesa3D are OpenGL implémentations
   
   
     
   
   

   
Yes, I understand that they are all OpenGL implementations which is why I asked anyone who owns a Vampire with an FPU enabled core to run some comparisons between TinyGL and Storm Mesa.  I'm interested to see which one performs better even without 3D hardware acceleration.
   
And yes, my suspicions about the 3D API that Gunnar will release are simply that, a suspicion.  I thought I had made that pretty obvious in my earlier post by using the word "suspect".
 
Amigas never implemented the AMMX/SSE API and instruction set either but Gunnar surprised quite a few people by adding it to the 68080 so it's anyone's guess how he will implement 3D graphics support in hardware. So to predict new features based on how things used to be done 25 years ago is flawed.
   
I could test these OpenGL implementations myself but I don't own a Vampire and testing them under WinUAE would probably give very different results from testing on real hardware....
   


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 1627
23 Jan 2019 16:54


thellier alain wrote:

  Hello
 
  >Vampire cores will be 3DFX/GLide
 
  I dont know about Gunnar plans but Amigas never used or implemented a 3DFX/GLide API so it will certainly not be used in Vampire to
 
 

 
  There is warp3D driver for Glide 3D cards e.g. Voodo >:)
 
  I wonder could some software like "Medication" (Mediator config tool) be updated to support the Vamp 3D Glide
 
  EXTERNAL LINK 
  Glide API similar to AMMX opens also possibility of easier PC backporting /easier use of known 3D API by "outsider" coders / providing yet another standard beyond Amiga days to the Classics.
 
  Vogons, an old school 3D website lists nice Win old games that have Voodo support
  EXTERNAL LINK 
 
 


Steve Ferrell

Posts 378
23 Jan 2019 17:26


Vojin Vidanovic wrote:

thellier alain wrote:

  Hello
   
    >Vampire cores will be 3DFX/GLide
   
    I dont know about Gunnar plans but Amigas never used or implemented a 3DFX/GLide API so it will certainly not be used in Vampire to
   
 

 
  There is warp3D driver for Glide 3D cards e.g. Voodo >:)
 
  I wonder could some software like "Medication" (Mediator config tool) be updated to support the Vamp 3D Glide
 
  EXTERNAL LINK   
  Glide API similar to AMMX opens also possibility of easier PC backporting /easier use of known 3D API by "outsider" coders / providing yet another standard beyond Amiga days to the Classics.
 
  Vogons, an old school 3D website lists nice Win old games that have Voodo support
  EXTERNAL LINK   
 
 

Quite a few Amiga users over the years have used 3DFX cards in their systems and the technical reference documents and code for the VooDoo chip sets are widely available.  Here's just one source:  EXTERNAL LINK 
But one thing is sure, Gunnar is full of surprises so I could be way out in left field with my suspicions.




Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 1627
24 Jan 2019 18:03


Steve Ferrell wrote:

  Quite a few Amiga users over the years have used 3DFX cards in their systems

 
  Well, compared to Virge and Cirus Logic, Voodo was a good choice of that time. To me, its both a bit Amiga Classicistic and continues exactly to 3D evolution after Amiga "has fallen".
 
  Now, if Gunnar would make a Voodo 6000 performance, that would attract PC fans too :-) (roughly 75% nForce 2 perf.)
 
  EXTERNAL LINK 
  End of line for Glide was Doom 3 engine
 
  Doom 3 isn't really playable on the Voodoo 5 6000 because its lack of T&L support  the best that we can do with all options set to the minimum is something like 5-10fps in 640x480 and thus is unplayable. Because we are a bit vicious, we tried to set the maximal quality to see what we could get, at this point we had around 0.5fps ;


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 4508
25 Jan 2019 12:24


To clarify some questions.

The APOLLO Team is working on / evaluating an 3D accelerator.
From 5000 foot height, the concept can be described as similar to the concept of the VOODOO. But its NOT a VOODOO remake.

The APOLLO 3D unit has a number of differences to the old VOODOO which we regards as better or improvements.

We started work on demo / demo game atm.


Steve Ferrell

Posts 378
25 Jan 2019 18:47


Gunnar von Boehn wrote:

To clarify some questions.
 
  The APOLLO Team is working on / evaluating an 3D accelerator.
  From 5000 foot height, the concept can be described as similar to the concept of the VOODOO. But its NOT a VOODOO remake.
 
  The APOLLO 3D unit has a number of differences to the old VOODOO which we regards as better or improvements.
 
  We started work on demo / demo game atm.

Thanks Gunnar.  That's what I was hoping to hear.



Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 1627
25 Jan 2019 19:52


Gunnar von Boehn wrote:

  The APOLLO Team is working on / evaluating an 3D accelerator.
  From 5000 foot height, the concept can be described as similar to the concept of the VOODOO. But its NOT a VOODOO remake.

Voodo 1 was a revolution, Voodo 3+ vere lacking some important laterly 3D functions like T%L which made nVIDIA won.

Surely, being beyond "Vodoo" copy is even nicer.


Norbert Kett
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 38
31 Jan 2019 17:39


uhh... ohh... i'm still here. that time when i experimented with TinyGL on 68k, apollo core had no fpu. and some people here tried to convince me to make integer only render. but i wanted to try the power of TinyGL with apollo+fpu. a bit later i ran another round, but i gave up again because the released apollo core had still no fpu. they didnt include it because of lack of space in the core.

gunnar wrote they working on a HW renderer. that would be the really delicious solution with TinyGL :)


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