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Performance and Benchmark Results!

Why Is TerribleFire 160 Times Slower Than Vampire?page  1 2 3 

Adam Whittaker
(Needs Verification)
Posts 270/ 1
22 Jan 2020 11:40


I can honestly say the TerribleFire 330 in my CD32 is an amazing peice of kit and was very cheap to assemble - yes it dosnt have RTG or a SDcard slot but its fine for what its meant to be and I can say without a shadow of a doubt I will be building or buying the 360 when its done... I really wanted to buy a Vampire 1200 or V4 but I just cant afford what you guys are asking.. which is a shame becasue my Vampire 2 has had so much use and was the best Amiga investment I ever made. Shame you guys cant take a leaf out of stephens book and perhaps open source, or lower you prices but yea I get it hobbiest vs buisness!Either way keep up the good work guys!


Nixus Minimax

Posts 415
22 Jan 2020 12:45


Adam Whittaker wrote:
Shame you guys cant take a leaf out of stephens book and perhaps open source, or lower you prices but yea I get it hobbiest vs buisness!

It's mainly protection of investments. How would you feel if you spent $$$ for 50 FPGAs only to find that while you are assembling a batch of cards somebody else starts flooding the market with his clones?



Adam Whittaker
(Needs Verification)
Posts 270/ 1
22 Jan 2020 13:27


Yea I mean I know its a buisness and the guys have invested hard work, blood sweat and tears and so so much time - but imagine a world where all Amigas can have Vamp power? how epic would that be? unfortunately being an Amiga Enthusiast just demands a high price these days and with a lot of us getting older the more boring things have to come first ya know rent and taxes! And this is where the TerribleFire shines so they are both good just in different ways!



David Wright

Posts 350
22 Jan 2020 14:37


I think Stephen started this as a thought experiment, then on to basic board design with actual pcb.

I believe he is a professional coder or hardware designer. He is also intelligent and creative so he has an ego that all have. You guys know what that is like, so treading lightly with the constructive criticism is in order.

In my field, I wouldn't really appreciate fellow professionals pulling out my name and work and breaking down the errors. Not if I am already down with the work where it wouldn't help.


Nixus Minimax

Posts 415
22 Jan 2020 14:38


Adam Whittaker wrote:
the guys have invested hard work, blood sweat and tears and so so much time

Hard work, blood, sweat and tears weren't my point. If you shell out a five-digit or high four-digit sum to buy parts and then you find your market has just been flooded with clones of your design, you have burnt some real-world money of your own on parts you can't sell. The Amiga market isn't unlimited in size.



Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 4762
22 Jan 2020 15:08


Adam Whittaker wrote:

and perhaps open source,

 
Home soldering a TF520 is a nice hobby "do it yourself" project.
For sure many people have the skill to do this.
And if you make a mistake, its not a big problem as there are no expensive components involved.
 
 
The Vampire is the absolute opposite.
 
The FPGA cost over $110 and it is very difficult to solder.
Its a 484 pin BGA chip.
Do it yourself" home soldering is not possible here.
And "cooking" 5 FPGA accidentally in your oven
while trying this at home - will not be funny.
The Vampire has several BGA and micro pitch chips
and it certainly not suited for "do-it-yourself".
 
 
 
I'm not sure if you fully aware what our goal is?
Our goal is not just to make a few accelerator cards.
Our goal is to fully revive the AMIGA and ATARI computers
and we take this very seriously.
 
We work on over 12 years on developing
both SAGA chipset and the APOLLO 68080 CPU.
The current V4 SA is a major milestone.
But our goal is to develop in the future ASIC AMIGAs.

I fully agree with you that there is room for many project.
The Vampire accelerators with 150 Mips are "high end" and allow you to play Quake 2 and watch movies in DVD like fashion.

Not everyone wants this.
So there is surely a market for lower end accelerators too.
And if we can help here with advice - we gladly help for free.



Adam Whittaker
(Needs Verification)
Posts 270/ 1
22 Jan 2020 15:32


and I see your goal and I see what your saying about the vamp being a tricky beast to make at home - all I am saying is its an expensive game and it would be nice if the vamps could be more affordable? I mean is there not other cheaper FGPA's that could be used? I mean I dont know I am just a humble guy and please believe me when I respect all you Amiga guys for keeping our beloved computers purring faster than Commodore could ever have imagined!


Igor Majstorovic
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 327
22 Jan 2020 16:21


Using another FPGA is nothing you can do quickly.

First of all a different FPGA means a complete new PCB layout.
And using a different FPGA model can also create a lot porting work.

This means "swap" to a new FPGA which is some $ cheaper
can create halve a year or a full year of work for us.

And if this FPGA is very new where none in the team has experience
this is also a very risky task.
In short this is all nothing which can be done quickly.


Adam Whittaker
(Needs Verification)
Posts 270/ 1
22 Jan 2020 18:33


ahh so its more a Development costs vs Production Costs type of situation?


Igor Majstorovic
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 327
22 Jan 2020 18:53


Developing an FPGA card means a lot of work.
And trying out some new cheaper FPGA is also a risk which needs be evaluated.

 


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 4762
22 Jan 2020 19:00


You can today buy V500/V600/V1200 and V4SA.
No other card is planned.
 
 
If we talk about "low end" we start a topic
which I think is not smart.
 
How would you make a card cheaper and more low-end?
Less memory?
Smaller FPGA with less features?
What do you want leave away?
  - FPU?
  - No video out?
  - Less Speed?
  - No IDE?
  - No SDcard? 

Yes one could surely make a low end card.
Which has less features and would maybe be a pure CPU accelerator
 
But such card would give a lot problem to the owner.
With less memory not all application will work.
Without truecolor RTG the whole AMIGA system will be much slower and look really poor compared to the Vamp today.
So whatever you leave away - it will make people unhappy.
 


Adam Whittaker
(Needs Verification)
Posts 270/ 1
22 Jan 2020 19:09


well no offence Gunnar but you started this whole topic - I am just trying to give you my opinion as a owner of both types of accelerator! that and now say how dissapointed I am to hear you be so down right closed minded about the idea of reducing costs! Thanks for that so I guess I wont ever be able to afford one of your newer Vampires then but who cares when you can chase people with money - you should remember we are all supposed to be part of this community - lately its turning into a Class system upper class and the rest of us. Anyway you have made your point!!!


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 4762
22 Jan 2020 19:19


Adam Whittaker wrote:

now say how dissapointed I am to hear you be so down right closed minded about the idea of reducing costs!

 
This is clearly not what I said.
 
I said that I think that all current features are good.
And see no feature which is "worth" to sacrifice.
Do you see this differently?
 
 
 


Adam Whittaker
(Needs Verification)
Posts 270/ 1
22 Jan 2020 19:23


I see that I am wasting my breath, It seems you dont want to even entertain the idea - you dont have to sacrifice any feature if you box clever... there is always another way is all I am saying!


Igor Majstorovic
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 327
22 Jan 2020 20:10


@Adam Whittaker let's sum up options to reduce costs.
  1. Use smaller FPGA who is cheaper -> design won't fit.
  2. Reduce memory size -> design will be crippled
  3. Move to new series of FPGA who are cheaper
  -> redesign of PCB with more layers, who increases costs
  -> more parts needed to support new FPGA
  -> changing memory type
  -> working hours needed for new PCB design - 300 
  -> porting core to new platform 
  -> first beta cards within 6 month, same time stopping whatever we are doing now
  4. Asking for partnership -> losing ability to make decisions in terms of future goals
  5. Asking for subventions money -> same as above
  6. Selling design -> it is not the time or smart or that anyone who offered us wanted/had to invest more than 3000USD
  7. Making production without using professional PCBA manufacturer -> I will die
  8. Creating DIY version of the project -> project is dead within 6 month
 
  If you have some other ideas please write them. I would say one more thing, Vampire cards will be more expensive in the future. I would now go to the any electronics parts seller and do print screen of the price of specific FPGA we are using and do the same sometimes later this year. You might be surprised what you will see.   
 


Kyle Blake
(Needs Verification)
Posts 108/ 1
22 Jan 2020 20:40


Adam Whittaker wrote:

  well no offence Gunnar but you started this whole topic - I am just trying to give you my opinion as a owner of both types of accelerator! that and now say how dissapointed I am to hear you be so down right closed minded about the idea of reducing costs! Thanks for that so I guess I wont ever be able to afford one of your newer Vampires then but who cares when you can chase people with money - you should remember we are all supposed to be part of this community - lately its turning into a Class system upper class and the rest of us. Anyway you have made your point!!!
 

 
  This is a completely childish rant.
 
  It has been explained to you why there is no practical way to reduce costs. Vampire is already cost-reduced to the maximum possible. They've done everything they can to help it. Any less and it loses it's defining features.
 
  Do you understand that? To "make it cheaper" makes it not a vampire anymore.
 
  Your response is to say that they're bullying you, discriminating against you or something? Because mean Gunnar and Igor can make vampires for ten euros but won't just to be cruel to you?
 
  I assume you're a teenager, and probably on the spectrum. Not had your first job yet, so 450 euros seems like impossible money. You act like this is an incredible injustice because teenagers almost all have warped perspectives, never think about where the food they eat comes from and who pays for it, and always think videogames and gadgets are the most important thing in the universe.
 
  When you finish becoming an adult and have to pay your own rent, then your perspective will change, and you'll realize not having easy access to computer toys isn't a human rights violation. You'll be too busy worrying if your boss will fire you for petty reasons, price of food going up, or if the winner of the next election might start a war.


David Wright

Posts 350
22 Jan 2020 20:45


Careful Kyle, Adam has rage quit this place more than once.



Kamelito Loveless

Posts 91
22 Jan 2020 20:57


I guess you could have done a Kickstarter like the ZX Spectrum Next team did.
I paid more for a A500 in 87 but I guess PC were more expensive.


Adam Whittaker
(Needs Verification)
Posts 270/ 1
22 Jan 2020 21:16


David Wright wrote:

  Careful Kyle, Adam has rage quit this place more than once.
 
 

 
**** sucker

EDIT ADMIN: Sorry David, but this insult results in a forum ban.


Igor Majstorovic
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 327
22 Jan 2020 21:24


@Kamelito Loveless
Ok let's make this constructive, this was the one. Kickstarter rejected me two times with explanation that this is not innovative enough and that it is not for them.
 

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