Overview Features Instructions Performance Forum Downloads Products Reseller Contact

Welcome to the Apollo Forum

This forum is for people interested in the APOLLO CPU.
Please read the forum usage manual.
VISIT APOLLO IRC CHANNEL



All TopicsNewsPerformanceGamesDemosApolloVampireCoffinReleasesLogin
Performance and Benchmark Results!

Vampire4 Some Impressionspage  1 2 3 4 5 

Jim Drew
Learn who I am!
Posts 67/ 1
01 Nov 2019 22:17


Vojin Vidanovic wrote:

Other nice workaround for some productivity apps would be even more native Mac 68k support (Fusion is nice, but it can be even faster).

I would bet against that.  The very reason why FUSION is so fast is that I patched the Mac OS to use a LOT of Amiga functions, which can run asynchronously.  A lot of Mac functions simply wait on things to occur and prohibit hardware transfers, video updates, etc. to be processed while waiting.  The FPU support in FUSION also replaces the Mac's floating point routines with low-level support.  In ALL cases, the Mac OS *requires* (without exception) 80 bit IEEE compliant FPU results.  This is why the Vampire does not work with the Mac OS without a lot of issues.  If you turn off the FPU, it works fine.  My new version of FUSION disables the FPU support if it detects the Vampire.  Want a simple example of an FPU related issue - open a window on the Mac OS8.1 and try to move the slider to scroll the contents of the window.  The Mac OS uses the FPU (when available) to calculate everything from window positions to basic math.  All of the various benchmark programs (Snooper, Speedometer, MacBench, etc.) all show the wrong results when doing most tests.




Roger Andre Lassen

Posts 79
01 Nov 2019 22:55


Jim Drew:
Fusion is awesome. Well done. Can i ask what you´re currently working on ? if any ? With your skills, you could do wonders for the Amiga community. 


Lord A1k

Posts 37
02 Nov 2019 00:31


@Jim Drew
What about an optimized version of Fusion for the vampires? I and many others would be interested to buy one. With the current Fusion version there is still problem on he V4, the screen mode can not be changed on the fly -> Crash


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 1422
02 Nov 2019 08:31


Jim Drew wrote:

  I would bet against that.  The very reason why FUSION is so fast is that I patched the Mac OS to use a LOT of Amiga functions, which can run asynchronously.  A lot of Mac functions simply wait on things to occur and prohibit hardware transfers, video updates, etc. to be processed while waiting.  The FPU support in FUSION also replaces the Mac's floating point routines with low-level support.  In ALL cases, the Mac OS *requires* (without exception) 80 bit IEEE compliant FPU results.  This is why the Vampire does not work with the Mac OS without a lot of issues.  If you turn off the FPU, it works fine.  My new version of FUSION disables the FPU support if it detects the Vampire.  Want a simple example of an FPU related issue - open a window on the Mac OS8.1 and try to move the slider to scroll the contents of the window.  The Mac OS uses the FPU (when available) to calculate everything from window positions to basic math.  All of the various benchmark programs (Snooper, Speedometer, MacBench, etc.) all show the wrong results when doing most tests.
 

 
  I fully understand lot has been done to make Fusion "native emulator" as it can be, resulting in high end Amigas outruning Macs. I was impressed by that in Classic days. Thanks in insight how it was done.
 
  As much as one can find, since I never owned Mac 68k, its quite generic thing and I suppose, like with freeMINT we could go somewhat hit MacOS even more directly. If its too hard to do, too little to gain, surely I vote for further Fusion optimization and development for 080.
 
  As my nag with Linux,MacOS is other gate to some decent software beyond scope of last AmigaOS developments.
 


Jim Drew
Learn who I am!
Posts 67/ 1
02 Nov 2019 20:26


Lord A1k wrote:

  @Jim Drew
  What about an optimized version of Fusion for the vampires? I and many others would be interested to buy one. With the current Fusion version there is still problem on he V4, the screen mode can not be changed on the fly -> Crash
 

 
  There really can't be a "Vampire optimized" version of FUSION.  It's an Amiga program.  If the Vampire had a working FPU and/or MMU that would make a huge improvement to the performance.
 
  The only thing I could do to make things better for the Vampire would be to make Vampire specific video driver.  If the Vampire had Picasso96 and/or Cybergraphics emulation then there would be no need for a custom video driver at that point.
 
Which video driver are you using that has the crash?  What mode are you trying to switch from/to?  Obviously this does not occur on a real Amiga, so this is likely a CPU or FPU instruction.  I am still running the Silver developer version of the Vampire core (pre-FPU) because of the serious issues running the Mac with the FPU and the issue with the wrong reserve memory setup that the GOLD version has.  So, screen switching crashes could be related to reserve memory incompatibility, CPU instruction, or FPU instruction issues.  At some point I will go back to the GOLD series and test the new RSRV2K program that eliminates what the built-in reserve memory stuff that is done with the GOLD core.  It's wrong for FUSION for sure.
 


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 4169
03 Nov 2019 08:28


Jim Drew wrote:

There really can't be a "Vampire optimized" version of FUSION. 

This is not a problem at all.

Shapeshifter runs great and does the job better than Fusion.


Ali B.

Posts 7
03 Nov 2019 14:02


At another point in this forum, I have read that we should be happy about everybody contributing instead of fighting. Why should we openly discredit anybody’s work?
This is not direct but rude. Bad manners.


M Rickan

Posts 170
03 Nov 2019 17:19


Ali B. wrote:

At another point in this forum, I have read that we should be happy about everybody contributing instead of fighting...

Good point.

I think it's safe to say that "direct" can be easily misinterpreted but instead of disagreeing, it would be much more productive to ask what can be done to help.




Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 4169
03 Nov 2019 18:28


Ali B. wrote:

This is not direct but rude. Bad manners.

 
Jim Drew is a man with bad reputation and some "history".
Because of his deeds Jims is not welcome at several places anymore - and he knows this.
Some say that he did with foul tricks try to kill of Shapeshifter.
 
But this leads all to far and is off topic.
 
Google a bit and build your own opinion.
But the topic Jim will here not more discussed.
 


Michael AMike

Posts 44
03 Nov 2019 19:02


Gunnar von Boehn wrote:

Jim Drew wrote:

  There really can't be a "Vampire optimized" version of FUSION. 
 

 
  This is not a problem at all.
 
  Shapeshifter runs great and does the job better than Fusion.

I made this year a quick'n dirty test. It seems that Shapeshifter is much faster than Fusion. Tested on a A1200 with Blizzard1260@60Mhz.
EXTERNAL LINK


Ali B.

Posts 7
03 Nov 2019 20:05


Gunnar von Boehn wrote:

  But the topic Jim will here not more discussed.

Sorry, I did not intend to point to one individual, especially not you, and did not want to offend anybody. Message received.


Renaud Schweingruber
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 308
03 Nov 2019 23:38


No worry, it seems someone else did take care of that already

EXTERNAL LINK 


Jim Drew
Learn who I am!
Posts 67/ 1
04 Nov 2019 00:29


Let's get the facts straight.  FUSION is always faster than Shapeshifter.  The thief (Christian Bauer) stole enough code from AMAX IV and EMPLANT's Mac emulation to make something that works (mostly).  Do a test with Speedometer 3.23 or 4.0, or MacBench 4.0 or 5.0.  These are the defacto standards for testing the performance of a Mac (or emulation).

If the Vampire gets 80 bit IEEE compliant precision like a real FPU then the emulation performance (and reliability) will improve greatly.




Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 1422
04 Nov 2019 01:16


Jim Drew wrote:
 
  If the Vampire gets 80 bit IEEE compliant precision like a real FPU then the emulation performance (and reliability) will improve greatly.

Team claims V4 core has improved FPU, abeit not of classic m68k kind.

"Especially for the APOLLO FPU unit which is fully pipelined, the Out of Order support can yield a great performance boosts."



Kef Emzy

Posts 40
04 Nov 2019 06:45


Jim Drew wrote:

The thief (Christian Bauer) stole enough code from AMAX IV and EMPLANT's Mac emulation to make something that works (mostly).

Please leave this forum.


Markus B

Posts 100
04 Nov 2019 09:51


Kef Emzy wrote:

Please leave this forum.

Why?


Michael AMike

Posts 44
04 Nov 2019 10:02


Jim Drew wrote:

  Let's get the facts straight.  FUSION is always faster than Shapeshifter.  The thief (Christian Bauer) stole enough code from AMAX IV and EMPLANT's Mac emulation to make something that works (mostly).  Do a test with Speedometer 3.23 or 4.0, or MacBench 4.0 or 5.0.  These are the defacto standards for testing the performance of a Mac (or emulation).
 

 
  I made the tests on a A1200 1260/60 with Speedometer and got other results. It seems that Shapie ist much faster than Fusion. Could it be a Fusion configuration issue? I was always with Shapie because it was available through the aminet.
 
  Testmachine: A1200 Blizzard 1260/60 256MB Kick 3.1.4 WB 3.1.4 last Shapie and Fusion version with MacOS 8.0. I've made the tests on the same MacOS Partition.
 
  Shapie
  EXTERNAL LINK 
  Fusion
EXTERNAL LINK


Sean Sk

Posts 286
04 Nov 2019 10:16


Kef Emzy wrote:

Please leave this forum.

 
Everyone has a right to participate in this forum.

Michael AMike wrote:

  Shapie
  EXTERNAL LINK   
  Fusion
EXTERNAL LINK 

Same picture in both links.
 


Michael AMike

Posts 44
04 Nov 2019 10:54


Thanks - here is the correct Link.
EXTERNAL LINK


Jim Drew
Learn who I am!
Posts 67/ 1
04 Nov 2019 17:33


These tests are done the same Amiga?  Same OS?  I would say not.  Are these test done on a real Amiga?  If done on the Vampire w/FPU, the test scores are going to be wrong (compared to a real FPU) because the Vampire's FPU does not support the full 80 bit precision required by the Mac (and Amiga in many cases, like ray-tracing and rendering programs that use the FPU).  Even on a slower Amiga, the math results are much faster on FUSION than any other Mac emulation that is running on a faster Amiga.
   
One thing to keep in mind is that you *must* be using System software installed with FUSION, for FUSION.  You can't use system software installed with Shapeshifter with FUSION because it will be missing numerous higher-end resources.  You can't share the same hardfile or partition between FUSION and Shapeshifter.  The *only* exception is if you had the OS81. "Universal Installer CD" and deliberately did an installation for "ALL MAC MODELS".  Every Mac had their own system software, and they were not cross compatible. So, the install disks for a Quadra won't work on a Centris, Mac IIci, Mac IIx, etc. (and vice-versa).  Apple finally got smart and made the Universal Installer CD when OS8.1 was released, and that is the only version that can be used with any Mac... but you still have to deliberately force it to install for Mac models.  Rule of thumb when dealing with Mac emulations - make a version for FUSION on FUSION, and make a version for any other Mac emulator using it - and do not ever try to share system software between emulators... you can't do it with real Macs either.

The Vampire CPU core is pretty amazing.  I am not fan of all of the extra wild instructions (I am a Motorola purist), but it is super fast.  I just wish the FPU support was complete with full IEEE 80 bit support.  That would solve a LOT of issues with the Mac emulations because Apple relies heavily on the FPU to do everything from calculating basic window positions to complex math functions (pack 5).  Even WinUAE requires that you enable 80 bit softfloat to emulate the FPU correctly or you get similar issues to what I see when using the GOLD core.


posts 87page  1 2 3 4 5