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Tim Trepanier

Posts 71
09 Nov 2019 17:07


Steve Ferrell wrote:

Heading down the road of making the Vampire emulate x86 or natively run non-Amiga 68K operating systems is a waste of time and resources that could be better spent on improving Amiga-specific features such as 3D graphics acceleration.

This is about priorities and feature creep. The whole point of using an FPGA is that you can release what you have then easily release updates as more features are completed.

Right now i feel the time between Vampire releases has gone on too long. I know things take time and the team is small but if time between releases gets too long Vampire fans will become frustrated, lose interest and move on to other things.

Better PC emulation is a nice feature but Amiga needs to be the priority. Other features can come later.

Stabilize the gold3 core and AROS. Release the A1200 Vampire card and 2.12. Backport gold3 to the existing v2 Vampire cards. This puts the Amiga and it's community first. Then you can add 3d acceleration, PC emulation and other features.

/rant


Steve Ferrell

Posts 378
09 Nov 2019 17:08


Gunnar von Boehn wrote:

Steve Ferrell wrote:

  Heading down the road of making the Vampire emulate x86 or natively run non-Amiga 68K operating systems is a waste of time and resources that could be better spent on improving Amiga-specific features such as 3D graphics acceleration.
 

 
  OK, I think I understand your "true" motivation now.
 
  You want the team to focus on AMIGA only stuff and this is why you rant against any other paralal development direction, as against ATARI, MAC OS etc.
 
  Don't you trust the APOLLO Team, that we are able to define our development priorities on our own, without your help?
 
 

I haven't been ranting, I've been voicing an opinion, and I find it ironic that I can voice my opinion about how I feel in regard to focusing on Amiga specific improvements for an Amiga project and be called a troll, yet those who have a different opinion and want to turn the Vampire into some sort of Frankenstein's monster of emulation for all things non-Amiga are praised.



Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 4182
09 Nov 2019 17:14


Tim Trepanier wrote:

  ..This is about priorities..
 

 
The Apollo Team is a team of several people with different skills.
If some people work on item "A", then other people in the team with different skills could work on another item "B".
 
Forbidding the other team members to work on "B" does not mean that "A" will be done any quicker.
 
You need a very good overview about "who does what, and what depends on which, and what skill has who" to be able to give reasonable comments about priorities.


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 1428
09 Nov 2019 17:21


Ferell, cut it please.
 
  Amiga is 100% Vamp and other way around.
 
  Any other development - be it x86 emu, MacOS emu, FreeMINT, Linux
  MIGHT attract some people and be additional cherry.
 
  But dont fight it with stupid arguments like Pi and x86 boards.
 
  People will buy Vamp for Amiga, but having improved other sys emu is a bonus, not a minus.
 
 
Steve Ferrell wrote:

  And I'm sorry Vojin, but when using a word processor, you're only as productive as the speed at which you can type, regardless of the hardware.  So again, your example of using a word processor on a Vampire to be productive is sort of pointless.
 
 

 
 
  Too much quantitative capitalist education.
 
  No, you are as productive as option software can display.
 
  You want to say I am mad because via fast MacOS I get early Quark, Premiere, Photoshop or AbiWord on Linux side or Office 2003 on x86 side?

Yes, priorities are stable V4, GOLD3 for v2 etc. but why not thinking a bit ahead and planning?


Steve Ferrell

Posts 378
09 Nov 2019 17:28


Tim Trepanier wrote:

Steve Ferrell wrote:

  Heading down the road of making the Vampire emulate x86 or natively run non-Amiga 68K operating systems is a waste of time and resources that could be better spent on improving Amiga-specific features such as 3D graphics acceleration.
 

 
  This is about priorities and feature creep. The whole point of using an FPGA is that you can release what you have then easily release updates as more features are completed.
 
  Right now i feel the time between Vampire releases has gone on too long. I know things take time and the team is small but if time between releases gets too long Vampire fans will become frustrated, lose interest and move on to other things.
 
  Better PC emulation is a nice feature but Amiga needs to be the priority. Other features can come later.
 
  Stabilize the gold3 core and AROS. Release the A1200 Vampire card and 2.12. Backport gold3 to the existing v2 Vampire cards. This puts the Amiga and it's community first. Then you can add 3d acceleration, PC emulation and other features.
 
  /rant

We're on the same sheet of music.  It is frustrating to say the least when the best Amiga project to come along in 25 years gets hijacked or at least temporarily diverted by x86 emulation and Mac/Atari fans....or by folks who think that those non-Amiga operating systems are going to make an Amiga project "better" somehow.

All these emulation diversions and lack of progress on Amiga-specifics has caused me to rethink purchasing a Vampire.  I'd like to see more assistance given to Bebbo for updating GCC for 68K so that some Amiga-specific ports and new development can get started.  The only thing that will keep the Amiga alive is new Amiga software development that takes advantage of new Amiga hardware features...not Windows, Mac or Atari development.




Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 4182
09 Nov 2019 17:31


Steve Ferrell wrote:

yet those who have a different opinion and want to turn the Vampire into some sort of Frankenstein's monster of emulation for all things non-Amiga are praised.

The 68000 CPU is the CPU used in "AMIGA, ATARI and MAC"
All these operating-systems are written to run on 68K.

Running those operating systems is just natural and has nothing to do with "emulation" at all.



Steve Ferrell

Posts 378
09 Nov 2019 17:32


Vojin Vidanovic wrote:

Ferell, cut it please.
   
 

Sorry to disappoint you but I'm not going to cut it.  My "opinion" is just as valid as yours.

And it's interesting that when you've run out of arguments that you stoop to labels like "stupid" and "capitalist" and tell me to just cut it.  Those are the tactics used by those who've run out of valid arguments.




Steve Ferrell

Posts 378
09 Nov 2019 17:34


Gunnar von Boehn wrote:

Steve Ferrell wrote:

  yet those who have a different opinion and want to turn the Vampire into some sort of Frankenstein's monster of emulation for all things non-Amiga are praised.
 

 
  The 68000 CPU is the CPU used in "AMIGA, ATARI and MAC"
  All these operating-systems are written to run on 68K.
 
  Running those operating systems is just natural and has nothing to do with "emulation" at all.
 

Again, I understand that.  But I thought this project was about the Amiga and picking up where Commodore left off so many years ago....not picking up where Apple or Atari left off.....my point is that this should first be the best Amiga project and all the other stuff should take a back seat.


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 4182
09 Nov 2019 17:37


Steve Ferrell wrote:

  Again, I understand that.  But I thought this project was about the Amiga and picking up where Commodore left off so many years ago....
 

 
Yes, we picked up where "MOTOROLA" left off and where "COMMODORE" left off.
They biggest part of the development is the CPU - which was MOTOROLAS business. And with this CPU you can also run ATARI OS and MAC OS.
 
Doing this does not "cost" us anything.
There is no drawback in running EMUTOS.
I see no reason to be against doing it.

To use a famous quote:
"We can play here both types of music: Country and Western"
 


Steve Ferrell

Posts 378
09 Nov 2019 17:42


Gunnar von Boehn wrote:

 
Steve Ferrell wrote:

  Again, I understand that.  But I thought this project was about the Amiga and picking up where Commodore left off so many years ago....
 

 
  Yes, we picked up where "MOTOROLA" left off and where "COMMODORE" left off.
  They biggest part of the development is the CPU - which was MOTOROLAS business. And with this CPU you can also run ATARI OS and MAC OS.
 
  Doing this does not "cost" us anything.
  There is no drawback in running EMUTOS.
  I see no reason to be against doing it.
 
 
 

 
I think we are in violent agreement in regards to 68K!  LOL!  And I think the Vampire does a fantastic job of running Mac and TOS.  I'm just saying in my opinion that I think it would be a mistake to divert resources from Amiga-specific improvements to any other architecture or operating system...at least right now anyway. 
 


M Rickan

Posts 170
09 Nov 2019 18:10


Steve Ferrell wrote:

I'm just saying in my opinion that I think it would be a mistake to divert resources from Amiga-specific improvements to any other architecture or operating system...at least right now anyway. 

The irony in all of this is that many of us who started off with the Amiga are now working in a professional capacity that involves managing resources relative to priorities. This is pretty familiar territory.

The one obvious thing that is being overlooked is the fact that within the last month we've had Dave Haynie, Jim Drew and Bernie Meyer either contribute here or appear in person to show interest in the Vampire.

The legacy emulation is maturing and people are starting to talk about next steps.

And the next generation.



Tim Trepanier

Posts 71
09 Nov 2019 18:47


Gunnar von Boehn wrote:

You need a very good overview about "who does what, and what depends on which, and what skill has who" to be able to give reasonable comments about priorities.

Point taken. Perhaps revealing your roadmap in more detail would help us understand. Of coarse roadmaps may change as circumstances change.


Stefano Briccolani

Posts 334
09 Nov 2019 19:40


Yes, an updated "activity report" from the Team would help to understand the ongoings. Igor is in "stealth mode" from Gamescom.. will there be new hardware from Lord Majsta soon?


Steve Ferrell

Posts 378
09 Nov 2019 20:13


m rickan wrote:

 
Steve Ferrell wrote:

    I'm just saying in my opinion that I think it would be a mistake to divert resources from Amiga-specific improvements to any other architecture or operating system...at least right now anyway. 
   

   
    The irony in all of this is that many of us who started off with the Amiga are now working in a professional capacity that involves managing resources relative to priorities. This is pretty familiar territory.
   
    The one obvious thing that is being overlooked is the fact that within the last month we've had Dave Haynie, Jim Drew and Bernie Meyer either contribute here or appear in person to show interest in the Vampire.
   
    The legacy emulation is maturing and people are starting to talk about next steps.
   
    And the next generation.
   
 

 
 
And what I'm saying is that there will be more than a few Vampire users who will feel alienated after spending over $500 USD on the newly released SA Vampire to see priorities shift to MS-DOS, MacOS and Atari when there's still so much that needs to be done in regard to classic AmigaOS, AROS 68K and some decent dev tools for the Vampire. I've decided to put any purchases on hold because it appears that there are too many distractions now and that some major issues will simply not be addressed or at least won't be addressed for quite some time because of the feature-creep.
 
I simply cannot justify laying down $500 for an SBC that only gets me what I can get for free with WinUAE, albeit WinUAE is significantly faster.  Right now, the Vampire can't even offer a stable version of AROS that has feature parity with classic OS3 and the Vampire ships with AROS ROM by default.  The priorities should be in getting AROS usable and getting some proper dev tools to support the 68080. I'm pretty certain that even Dave Haynie, Jim Drew and Bernie Meyer will want a compiler that supports 080/AMMX if they plan to develop for the Vampire unless you expect them to code everything in 100% assembler.


Roger Andre Lassen

Posts 80
09 Nov 2019 20:26


I somewhat agree with Steve Ferrell here. I have NO interest in ATARI or X86 stuff. I want AMIGA, and ONLY AMIGA stuff. But who am i to tell anyone. Just my opinion.

PS: I have pre ordered the V4 SA though. Because its a GREAT leap for the AMIGA.


Samuel Devulder

Posts 220
09 Nov 2019 20:30


@Steve: I see you talking about priorities being shifted to something else, and I'm wondering: where did you get this? What's makes you believe that MSDos is a new priority for the HW or SW team? Nobody from the team spoke about changing priorities in this thread. I think you are afraid of something that doesn't exist. Priorities are still the same as before.


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 1428
09 Nov 2019 20:32


Roger Andre Lassen wrote:

    I somewhat agree with Steve Ferrell here. I have NO interest in ATARI or X86 stuff. I want AMIGA, and ONLY AMIGA stuff.
   

 
  Bah, bashing Atari or Mac "launching/emulation" option on Amiga, that used to require hardware. Foolishness. It is sw development on AMIGA.
   
    EmuTOS development was completely parallel to GOLD2.x core and SAGA drivers, development or AROS m68k fixing etc.
   
    Testing was done by separate people, and no CoffinOS release or core release was late. Even GOLD3 alpha came. Today EmuTOS was one of best supporting piece of code in Vamp support, alongside VASM, Riva and special port of NetSurf.
   
    Let people interested do their charms.
   
    Hereby, I never owned Atari or m68k Mac, just Amiga and AmigaOne.


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 4182
09 Nov 2019 20:43


Lets us be very clear here.
 
This forum is production and constructive talk.
This forum is to help people.
 
We talk about different OS here, including
AROS, AMIGA OS, ATARI and others using 68K.
 
If you have no interest in some of those - then keep this info to yourself.
No one here wants to know this.

Talk productive and start doing something for the OS you like.
For example : code something yourself!
Or help test.
Here is no place to put other OS down!
 


Roger Andre Lassen

Posts 80
09 Nov 2019 20:48


ok. personal opinions. No go. Noted !


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 4182
09 Nov 2019 20:53


Roger Andre Lassen wrote:

ok. personal opinions. No go. Noted !

 
Everyone has his personal opinion and for sure also a favorite OS.
But this give you not the right to put others down.

Do you want that more is done for your favorite OS?
I can understand this.
How about that you start doing something for it?
Code something..
Developed something..
Ask others to help you..
Ask the team for support..

Do something positive!
 

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