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What Counts

Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 5730
23 Jun 2019 08:32


Theodore Roosevelt wrote:

It is not the critic who counts;
not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles,
or where the doer of deeds could have done them better.
The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena,
whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood;
who strives valiantly; who errs,
who comes short again and again,
because there is no effort without error and shortcoming;
but who does actually strive to do the deeds;
who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions;
who spends himself in a worthy cause;
who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement,
and who at the worst, if he fails,
at least fails while daring greatly,
so that his place shall never be with those cold
and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.




Mr Niding

Posts 459
23 Jun 2019 11:22


Indeed.
 
  Its why I ask ferrels (on aw.net) about aspects of the memory access and issues the OS got vs development enviroment.
 
  I dont understand much of the issues that the OS has, and I bet most that are critical are in the same category. We dont actually develop software, and as such have no refrencepoint to genuninly evaluate the status of software, development tools, OS or workflow.
 
  When a developer like ferrels tries to discuss with people that doesnt actually develop, it tends to become a topic of emotions instead of hard facts.
 
  Which, again, is why I poked him for indepth (for a non-developer) explainations.


Hugo Pereira

Posts 71
23 Jun 2019 11:46


Gunnar von Boehn wrote:

Theodore Roosevelt wrote:

  It is not the critic who counts;
  not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles,
  or where the doer of deeds could have done them better.
  The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena,
  whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood;
  who strives valiantly; who errs,
  who comes short again and again,
  because there is no effort without error and shortcoming;
  but who does actually strive to do the deeds;
  who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions;
  who spends himself in a worthy cause;
  who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement,
  and who at the worst, if he fails,
  at least fails while daring greatly,
  so that his place shall never be with those cold
  and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.
 

 

Only the boldest are awarded.

I believe that the Apollo Team deserves to be rewarded for the work done with Vampire.
I want to thank you for the clarifications provided by you and the Apollo Team. The reports and the explanations in the forum are important.

Best regards


David Wright

Posts 373
23 Jun 2019 14:53


I used to have that on my office wall. One of TDs best and most relevant.
Yes, when you are actually creating something or working for a cause a lot blow hards and simpletons come out of the closet with their opinions. As they say it is lonely at the top.

Look at Stephen Leary of  Terrible Fire with his rage quits and bannings. It can be despairing to contribute and work so hard and hear some of the sniping. Of course our Scottish friend is a short fused gent and has over reacted sometimes to generally insightful comments as well.


Steve Ferrell

Posts 410
23 Jun 2019 23:21


Mr Niding wrote:

Indeed.
 
  Its why I ask ferrels (on aw.net) about aspects of the memory access and issues the OS got vs development enviroment.
 
  I dont understand much of the issues that the OS has, and I bet most that are critical are in the same category. We dont actually develop software, and as such have no refrencepoint to genuninly evaluate the status of software, development tools, OS or workflow.
 
  When a developer like ferrels tries to discuss with people that doesnt actually develop, it tends to become a topic of emotions instead of hard facts.
 
  Which, again, is why I poked him for indepth (for a non-developer) explainations.

I'm sorry that my comments over at AW were very harsh and pointed.  My anger was directed only at Kolla.  Whenever there's a thread on any forum and the subject involves the Vampire, he inevitably shows up and attempts to derail the thread with the same broken rhetoric that got him banned here.  He's still obsessed with the Vampire's lack of an accessible MMU and the FPU.  It's impossible to have a civil exchange with him.  Now he claims that the Vampire is essentially useless for development since the MMU isn't accessible for debugging and that the FPU is somehow inaccurate.  Never mind that thousands of budding C/C++ programmers cut their teeth on stock A500's back in the late 1980's....a system with no MMU or FPU.  I just don't have the patience anymore for him and his shenanigans. I believe a cross compiler is the ideal environment for developing classic Amiga software but for people who don't want to deal with the complexity of setting up such a system, or for those who cannot afford another computer for development, the Vampire is just fine.  Slower than a dedicated, cross-compiling PC, but still useful.


Gildo Addox

Posts 31
24 Jun 2019 06:53


Indeed - this are interesting words form Roosevelt.

But Gunnar, what exactly do you want to tell us?

Should different opinions or even controvertial behaviour be allowed in this forum or not?



Thellier Alain

Posts 126
24 Jun 2019 07:53


Hello Gunnar

Dont let the haters voice tooks to much place:  there are much more people in the silence that appreciate the great works you did (and still doing).

So if Vampire sells well is the only real advice about your works.

Like a singer dont let the critics speak as only your public count


Mr Niding

Posts 459
24 Jun 2019 10:53


Gildo Addox wrote:

  Indeed - this are interesting words form Roosevelt.
 
  But Gunnar, what exactly do you want to tell us?
 
  Should different opinions or even controvertial behaviour be allowed in this forum or not?
 
 

 
The question becomes;
 
Asking about plans or make suggestions in a clinical manner without getting testy shouldnt be taken negatively.
 
Take the old topic of the FPU.
 
If there are limited workresources available, a team have to make decisions about priorities about when to do what.
FPU wasnt on the near term plan, or maybe not even on the map.
Then Jari decided to take it upon himself to do the Femu, and do some heavylifting outside the team.
It inspired the team to help him out, and after some time we have FPU.
 
If I personally are doing something, and have a pile of other stuff in the pipeline, Im not inclined to change my workflow to do something out of order/or new unless whoever is asking is willing/able to help out.
 
Thats basically the issue with many on forums, they demand xyz, without actually contributing.

I can imagine that becomes tiresome rather quickly.


Lord Aga
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 119
24 Jun 2019 11:15


Gildo Addox wrote:

Indeed - this are interesting words form Roosevelt.
 
  But Gunnar, what exactly do you want to tell us?
 
  Should different opinions or even controvertial behaviour be allowed in this forum or not?
 

It's not about allowing or disallowing different opinions. It's about the culture of communication and respecting other people's work. Which seems to be lost these days, not only on the Internet but in real life too.

Let me give you a couple of examples...

Say you have a good idea. You present it as 'Hey guys, is it possible to do this and that?' If it's doable, the team will thank you and accept it. Cool.

Say you have a bad idea, but you think it's good. You present it as 'Hey guys, is it possible to do this and that?' The team then explains why it's bad/impossible to do it. Cool.

Now, the problems arise when people insist that their ideas have to be implemented/given priority. This is where Gunnar's Roosevelt quote kick's in. Nobody knows the project better than the people covered with sweat and blood in the 'trenches'. And then you have the 'critics' harping day after day about what and how should be done. The massive ego of it man! Telling other people what to do in their own time, and demanding their bidding be done! All the while, not doing anything themselves. Just telling other people what to do.

So you see. You have two kinds of different opinions:
1) I think this would be good to do. Yes/no?
2) I am 100% right and you have to do as I say or will nag and rag on you day and night on every possible Amiga forum.

I hope you understand Gunnar's post a bit better now.


Gildo Addox

Posts 31
24 Jun 2019 11:58


Thanks Lord Aga

I completely understand that post from Gunnar (I hope), but I had to make an interpretation like you did.

But I have to say 1 thing: Some of my posts have been deleted with the reason that they have not been constructive in a technical way.

But then, this thread here is not constructive either. It's a thread with different opinions. If you have an open forum, it's a pretty aggressive act to delete posts, just because you think it's not constructive. After all I took my time to write my post and I have my point of view.

I already said: if you don't want an open forum make it closed. I think it would be better.




Mr Niding

Posts 459
24 Jun 2019 12:11


Well, take kolla and ppcamiga1;
 
ppcamiga1 I dont actually understand. I realise he prefere the PPC branch of Amiga, which is fine. I purchased AOS4 FE, and used it with WinUAE. It looks pretty and is probably quite nice to use on a X5000.
 
Ferrels will, and I belive has, pointed out the cost vs performance disparity (including driver issues). While I agree with Ferrels, I refrain from making that point on forums, cause it creates nothing but anomosity.
Its better to appriciate the efforts of xyz team, be it AEON, Softwarefailure (Hollywood) or the new bedroom coders making gradually better Amiga games.
 
If I compare the presentation of any programs/games with AAA games made by major gamedev studios, the commentary would be ruthless.
I adjust my framing/perspective based on the limitation in manpower and resources.
 
I dont actually remember your posts, and what you tried to convey (not been frequenting forums much lately), but Gunnar did say in the past that if you have something you consider a good idea, then start working on it, and they will assist time permitting.
 
If you have disagreements with the direction of the project, I think your chances of getting a serious hearing is higher if you are an ACTIVE developer.
 
Again, I dont actually think you have been unfair, since I havent read your post, but I have read enough commentary both on MIRC and forums to realise that even the Apollo team are only human too. They get affected by endless negativity (not saying you did), and sometimes they overreact to posts.
 
I think most of us can indentify with this. I know I can.
 
Hell, I apologized to a collegue last week for being in a foul mood. Fatigue over months of hard work was getting to me, and what wasnt my collegues fault still affected my mood.

This is where kolla comes in. Ive been reading his posts over years, and he clearly knows Amiga system/workbench quite well. So he can help out, and does do so quite often. Comes with suggestions etc.
But he also have a tendency to make "funny"/snide remarks, that makes people focus on that instead of the more constructive parts of his commentary.
 
So we are only human.


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 5730
24 Jun 2019 12:12


Some explanation:

Developing a high end 68K CPU is a lot of work.
The Apollo Team works over since 10 years on the Core.

Part of the 68080 development was also the development of the FPU.

Background:
The 68080 design was originally developed for the NATAMI system.
The NATAMI was a new standalone Amiga based on an FPGA similar to the Vampire.

The Vampire used also an FPGA but the V2 is mainly an accelerator.
The Vampire V2 uses a smaller FPGA than the NATAMI did.
Advantage of the Vampire is, thats its sold for less than 50% price of the NATAMI.

The Vampire V2 makes a great affordable accelerator card.
As you can imagine the Apollo team was challenged to fit the original APOLLO FPU in the Vampire - because of FPGA size.

The Apollo team decided to spend a year to develop a compromise-version of the original FPU for the Vampire.

Goal of this compromise was to give thousands of Vampire users a FPU that fits in the card and allows them to run games like Quake or FPU applications like Lightwave or Cinema4D.
Of course to reduce the size some features of the FPU needed to be sacrifized.

The team did IMHO do good decision here in the best interest of the users. Of course every decision can be criticized.
And criticizing is always easy from the outside - even more if the critic has no clue about FPU development, and does not need to worry about real live problems like FPGA space.




Renaud Schweingruber
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 357
24 Jun 2019 12:17


I like that picture pretty much
EXTERNAL LINK


Mr Niding

Posts 459
24 Jun 2019 12:18


Renaud nailed it.


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 5730
24 Jun 2019 12:21


Gildo Addox wrote:

If you have an open forum, it's a pretty aggressive act to delete posts, just because you think it's not constructive. After all I took my time to write my post and I have my point of view.

This forum has a very dedicated purpose.

Purpose of forum is to help users of the 68080 CPU,
and to answer questions related to it.

We try our best to keep the forum focused.


Ronnie Beck
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 197
24 Jun 2019 12:24


I am using the Amiga again because the Vampire exists.  The Apollo Core is technically fascinating and opens up the possibilities of what can be done on the Amiga.  It is really an awesome piece of hardware.  There isn't another Amiga hardware out there which is anywhere near as interesting.

You guys should be nothing but proud of what you guys have created.  There is a huge fan base here who are extremely grateful for your efforts.

F#ck the critics.  Nothing ground breaking is ever done without critics saying something.  But at the end, you must know that you guys are doing it right!  These talent-less jerks in various forums cannot say anything that invalidates the pleasure I have in using a Vampire based Amiga.  Nor can they undo the success of the project with their endless whining.

@Critics:  Those who can, do.  Those who can't, bitch on forums.

@Apollo Team:  Great Job!!!


Gildo Addox

Posts 31
24 Jun 2019 12:40


@Apollo Team

I really thank the whole Team for your brilliant, hard work. You absolutely crushed the goals and the vampire is a testament to your hard work, great spirit, and raw talent.

Thank you for facing challenges head on, no matter how daunting they are.

A lot of people will have a lot of fun with your products and I hope to see you one day to say thank you personally.

And I always said: If you want some great chocolate from switzerland: just write me your address. Il send you some of the finest in town. (some people dont believe me, but I'll do it for sure) -> info at addox.ch




Lord Aga
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 119
24 Jun 2019 12:43


Is Swiss cheese also an option? :) For those of us who don't eat sweet :D


Gildo Addox

Posts 31
24 Jun 2019 13:25


Yes. Of course.

posts 19