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Software for Vampirepage  1 2 3 4 

MartinTomas Steffen

Posts 61
28 Apr 2019 11:23


Someone People here asked for Software for Vampire.
I think thats the wrong way.
If we Start to write Software that Will Not work on not Vampire Amigas we split the Community again.
There are a lot of Vampire haters in the Amiga-Demoszene on a crusade against us.
Vampire is not Amiga, Vampire is emulation, Vampire is shit, and so on...........


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 4192
28 Apr 2019 11:37


MartinTomas Steffen wrote:

If we Start to write Software that Will Not work on not Vampire Amigas we split the Community again.

 
Lets make a simple example.
 
I have got at home a TV with 3D feature.
This means I can at home watch movies like AVATAR in 3D at home.
 
I like to view sometimes 3D movies.
So I like that people create such movies.
I think the situation with the Vamp is very similar.

Also when AGA Amigas came out, you wanted AGA games using all colors. Of course those AGA gaves did not run on A500...




Ronnie Beck

Posts 33
28 Apr 2019 11:44


The division existed long ago already.  It doesn't matter what you do there will be division.  If you create an new hardware, the argument will "But what about all the people who don't have that hardware."
 
  Stop seeing things as division and see it as diversity.  Not all software runs on all Amigas anyway.  That has always been the case, even in the old days of Commodore.
 
  Let those who prefer to enjoy an original Amiga as it was in the commodore days do so, and those who want to indulge their curiousity to try a future the commodore might have brought, by buying a Vampire.
 
  There is already enough software for the original Amigas.  We need software which can benefit from the Vampire now.  Chances are, Vampire based software had no hope of running on older 68k CPUs anyhow.  No point to hold us back from the future because of the limitations of the past.


MartinTomas Steffen

Posts 61
28 Apr 2019 12:14


Dont get me wrong. I Love to see new datatypes that use the Vampire.
  Lets say AWeb spezial for Vampire, or AmigaVision with Vampiraddon is fine. But Software that just exists on Vampire is what i call wrong.
  Damm, dont know how to explain what i want say on english.
  I just dont want to give Benzin ⛽️ to this Vampire-haters.


MartinTomas Steffen

Posts 61
28 Apr 2019 12:50


Dont get me wrong. I Love to see new datatypes that use the Vampire.
Lets say AWeb spezial for Vampire, or AmigaVision with Vampiraddon is fine. But Software that just exists on Vampire is what i call wrong.
Damm, dont know how to explain what i want say on english.
I just dont want to give Benzin ⛽️ to this Vampire-haters


Kef Emzy

Posts 40
28 Apr 2019 12:53


My 2 cents...

Vampire is vastly superior to OCS/ECS/AGA hardware. Faster, more colorful and better audio. It is also soon the only way to get new Amiga hardware (Yeah, I'm waiting for you V4). I wouldn't buy a new Amiga 500/1200 today unless it would be improved a lot. Vampire is just that, the AAA Amiga I wanted 25 years ago and more. Obviously Vampire specific software is high on my wish list and necessary for the platform to continue to evolve. Hopefully if everything works out we might get ASIC one day for even more features and speed. With compability of the best computer ever made. The Amiga!


Ronnie Beck

Posts 33
28 Apr 2019 13:07


MartinTomas Steffen wrote:

But Software that just exists on Vampire is what i call wrong.

Who makes these rules?  Calling such software wrong, is probably wrong in itself.

This Vampire hardware is special and offers opportunities which were never available to an Amiga previously.  It pushes the boundaries and allows us to enjoy our Amiga's more in new facinating way.  It allows us to do things with the platform that we couldn't because the hardware just never kept paced, leaving us fans feeling slightly dissapointed and envious.  It isn't wrong to get what you wanted in the end.  Not at all.

Newer software which pushes beyond the limits of our favourite computer will needs to break out of the old mold a little.  Is that true to retro computing?  Maybe not.  Maybe this just pure tinkering with a retro computer as the basis.  But it is a hobby at the end.  You do as you please with your hobbies because it brings you pleasure.  I myself came back to the Amiga because I found the idea of an A500 with a lot more power a very exciting idea.  And it has been a satisfying experience indeed!

How can software/hardware, in this context, be "wrong"?  Engineers are driven largely by curiousity.  Innovation is living the engineer's dream.  I don't see there being anything wrong with a software/hardware engineer doing what he loves.  Especially if is creative, constructive and for the mutual benefit of others.

I salute your sentiment though, in that you don't want to see others excluded or a community divided.  It is in the right spirit.  But the Vampire scene doesn't exist at the exclusion of others.  People are free to buy a Vampire card if they want to join in.  The emulator writers can always add Vampire compatibility at any time.  They are free not to, if they don't like it.  And many choose not to.  Their choice.

Imagine if Amiga users had taken this attitude to software which required an 060?  Or an 040?  Or an 030....I think you get the point.

MartinTomas Steffen wrote:

  Damm, dont know how to explain what i want say on english.
  I just dont want to give Benzin ⛽️ to this Vampire-haters.

We know what you mean.  Maybe the expression "Give the haters ammunition" is also equivalent.


Roy Gillotti

Posts 351
28 Apr 2019 13:09



  This type of division has been around forever... OCS -> ECS -> AGA, then 68000 ->68020->030->040->..etc..->PPC accelerators...
 
  Honestly I haven't seen too much software development that targets the Vampire's features directly, to target the special features like AMMX, it requires some serious understanding of Assembly which isn't that common for people that just do quick ports. In almost all cases the Vampire allows a piece of software that would be just too slow on a regular 68k series processor to be usable.


Ronnie Beck

Posts 33
28 Apr 2019 13:10


Kef Emzy wrote:

I wouldn't buy a new Amiga 500/1200 today unless it would be improved a lot. Vampire is just that, the AAA Amiga I wanted 25 years ago and more.

I wouldn't be surprised if most people felt the same.  I certainly agree.


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 1430
28 Apr 2019 22:43


MartinTomas Steffen wrote:

Someone People here asked for Software for Vampire.
  I think thats the wrong way.

There are (sadly) quite few tools that are Vamp only, a game,
a demo and a few tools. And there is no reason why one should not be. Loved when ECS-AGA games came by, liked what 040+RTG could pull out even it was out of my pocket reach.

Such negative attitude is simply killing a baby at a birth ...
More software will come with both better V2 and V4 availiability
and more users. First comes the hardware, then it comes to use.

But some more software comes with 020,040 and even 080-MMX versions (Netsurf, Datatypes ...) and such software could help Vamp be better accepted within Amiga community. Problem is, newer m68k backports simply require 040 or better 060 or Vampire, so its even less likely in future.

And what nagsayers will say ... well, is not that important as long as more people are interested in Vampire, then disinterested by lack of few features (like MMU now) or some other desire of "amiga way".

Kef Emzy wrote:

  I wouldn't buy a new Amiga 500/1200 today unless it would be improved a lot. Vampire is just that, the AAA Amiga I wanted 25 years ago and more.
 

Up to 12MB Chip/500MB Fast RAM, 060+ CPU, Advanced AGA/RTG, USB, network, SDCard ... as standard? Gimme more :) Its much more AAA ever desired to be.


Stephan Hamers

Posts 13
29 Apr 2019 03:44


It's very weird that the DemoScene should be the king of Amiga hardware evolution just because they're good programmers, creative and very handy with register bashing. And errmm yeah, wasn't that last thing exactly what created the incompatibilities in the first place?
The VAMPiRE removes most if not all of the incompatibilities. So their argument totally backfires!
I think it's more of a cult like group that doesn't like change.
And hey, if software that isn't hardware intensive is totally written in 68000 that's just fine by me too. :)


Grzegorz Wójcik (pisklak
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 73
29 Apr 2019 10:48


Well.... Vampire may change for sure one thing. Almost anyone may have now a 'fast 060' with RTG in home. Should make at least '060' demos more popular.
  Still I do not understand why demoscene have this kind of 'Vampire alergy'. It is still Amiga, it is just Amiga, it is fast Amiga.
  They will still have their challenges with Vampire - similar to technical challanges on plain A500/A1200 or 060. They will be just on higher level. And Vampire for sure can bring more 68k (and AMMX) fun !


Ronnie Beck
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 109
29 Apr 2019 11:31


Grzegorz Wójcik (pisklak wrote:

Still I do not understand why demoscene have this kind of 'Vampire alergy'. It is still Amiga, it is just Amiga, it is fast Amiga.

It isn't just the demo scene.  This allergy is widespread.  Just start a thread at amiga.org with "vampire" in the title.  It is like taking a globe to a Flat Earth convention.

At the end, these people made up their minds long ago.  Trying to convince them otherwise is an exercise in pure futility.


Przemyslaw Tkaczyk

Posts 141
29 Apr 2019 13:44


I don't really see a problem with making a "fat binary" type of software as we once knew from MacOS - it ran on 68K but really flied only when a PPC was present in the system. Detecting 080 and RTG at runtime isn't really a problem. After this, the software can decide whether it will utilize the AMMX and extended instruction set goodness or leave it just at 020-060 level. For example, When everyone switched from A500 to A1200 at some point, they were looking for 020+ binaries and perhaps a OS3.x version, because - why not? I am not really worried about a "split", and the so-called "Community" is unfortunately just more vocal with the voice of the nay-sayers and plain haters. I really, really don't care about them. They can also accept it as a challenge and make a software just as good for "classic" Commodore/Motorola combo. It's just a matter of perspective. And good will. That's it. I say bring it on, let's move forward and be happy with the new hardware and new possibilites. PEACE!


Ian Parsons

Posts 195
29 Apr 2019 16:24


It doesn't surprise me that some people are against change to a platform that didn't evolve for over twenty years. The Amiga platform did evolve a lot from its genesis in the mid-1980's until the death of Commodore but not quickly enough, so the IBM PC compatibles out performed it. Post-Commodore the commercial reality was that the Amiga platform was no longer able to compete with the PCs in particular the rise of the internet and 3D gaming needing better processing power and graphics than stock Amigas could cost-effectively provide. The Vampire boards are breathing new life into machines that should be extinct by now. There's still a long way to go to catch up on all those generations of missed evolution and it may never happen but it's great that there is at least now a chance of it.


Chris Edwards

Posts 39
29 Apr 2019 17:41


i enjoy my V2 immensely, however i seem to have strange issues with it all the time that make me angry. just basic crap like OS telling me the hard drive is full, when its not, installs that fail, then work, Just to fail. (installing boingbags) i have turned it into a nightmare of 15 different CF/SD/MicroSD cards to get it ironed out. i work a little each day. just hoping for a stable os build, even CoffinR54 seems to yell that it can't start something every time i turn it on.


Steve Ferrell

Posts 378
29 Apr 2019 22:48


MartinTomas Steffen wrote:

    Someone People here asked for Software for Vampire.
    I think thats the wrong way.
    If we Start to write Software that Will Not work on not Vampire Amigas we split the Community again.
    There are a lot of Vampire haters in the Amiga-Demoszene on a crusade against us.
    Vampire is not Amiga, Vampire is emulation, Vampire is shit, and so on...........
   

   
   
The chances of anyone OTHER than the Apollo team or Vampire users/owners writing Vampire-specific applications are next to zero, so the point you're trying to make falls flat.
   
You have to own and use a Vampire to code for it, so classic Amiga owners (non-Vampire enhanced) won't even care if Vampire coders are writing Vampire-specific apps.  Hardcore, classic Amiga fans (non-Vampire enhanced) are free to cling to the past and continue using and coding for their classic Amigas.  If they don't like the Vampire, that's fine.  They don't have to buy one.  The fact that they may not like the Vampire doesn't mean that there's a fragmented community.  It's all the same community, but the difference is now we have a choice and a way forward. That's always a good thing.
 
And it isn't like there are 68K programmers clamoring to develop for the Vampire which will somehow hurt traditional 68K development or take resources away from classic 68K development.  The net sum of 68K and 68080 coders remains the same.


Marlon Beijer

Posts 152
30 Apr 2019 10:06


The SDL version shipped with Bebbo's GCC toolchain contains code that is only beneficial to the Vampire, but it still works for the rest as well, only that Vampire will have a speed boost due to this.

Making datatypes and other libraries that do the same is the right approach imo. Otherwise devs can just include a 040/060 and 080 version of their game/software. It's not that big of a deal. They already do that.

However, some stuff is just way too demanding for 040/060, then Vampire "exclusive" software makes sense, since you wouldn't be able to run it on anything else anyway.




Robert Downs

Posts 14
02 May 2019 05:00


Once I buy my V4, I would gladly lend it to a top scener to do some magic with it. 


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 1430
04 May 2019 21:13


Marlon Beijer wrote:
 
  However, some stuff is just way too demanding for 040/060, then Vampire "exclusive" software makes sense, since you wouldn't be able to run it on anything else anyway.

Exactly. Beyond 060 (or Pentium) should be "name of the game".


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