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Software for Vampirepage  1 2 3 4 

Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 4174
05 May 2019 08:34


Performance is an important aspect.

If you look at games/applications like "194x Deluxe",
or "NEOGEO emulator" or "RIVA" or "JPEG datatype" -
then you see the VAMP can deliver FPS like
an accelerator with 68060 running at 200MHz to 300MHz would do.

For example the Vamp has enough performance to allow
watching some Youtube videos even in H264 format.
So a Youtube player for Vamp only makes sense,
as no other 68K is fast enough for it.




Barana V

Posts 49
05 May 2019 11:19


"There are a lot of Vampire haters in the Amiga-Demoszene on a crusade against us.
Vampire is not Amiga, Vampire is emulation, Vampire is shit, and so on.."

Yes I've seen this a bit. It happened to me when I bought a sam460.
The trolls came out of the woodwork.
It also happened around 2002-2004 when I posted to fora with my phone's WAP browser.

There are many Asperger's in the Amiga community. I should know.....
It's either the old Asperger's problem with new things...or

The phenomena I see and have come to understand Is how blokes express jellousy.
It is expressed slightly differently with women. And Imho more common with women.

Don't worry or give it much attention.


Mr Niding

Posts 388
05 May 2019 12:05


Britelite has been quite polite, but direct in his comments regarding Vampire.

A couple of points he has made;

Unless there is a 100% guarrante that the Vampire behaves like the Classic hardware, then its less intresting to him.
Basically, his code should run exactly like on the hardware, and the tricks he can do there, should behave like on the Vampire.

Secondly, I think they enjoy the challenge of limited hardware, that hasnt expanding capability.
Take the last Revision party. Massive and impressive demos for OCS, non expanded A1200 etc.

Ofcourse, these demos would have been much prettier on Vampire, but thats not really the point for some of them.
They try to maximise their code on a very limited platform.

Some people will ofcourse insult/go crazy, but thats the vocal minority I think.


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 4174
05 May 2019 12:27


Mr Niding wrote:

  Unless there is a 100% guarrante that the Vampire behaves like the Classic hardware, then its less intresting to him.
 

   
Demanding a 100% guarantee sounds unrealistic at best.
Several AMIGAs models do not 100% behave like others.
A PAL AMIGA does not behave 100% like an NTSC AMIGA for example.
A A1200 does not behave like A600 etc ...
   
And btw, since when on earth you can have a 100% guarantee for anything?
   
Is there a 100% guarantee that USA men went to the moon?
Is there a 100% guarantee that your wife will not betray you?
Can you have a 100% guarantee that you will be alive tomorrow even?
   
The Vampire SAGA chipset is compatible to AGA but it supports new features.
It supports 8 channel, and 8bit and16bit AUDIO, not 8 bit only.
So it support more and better stuff.
Therefore is can be compatible but not 100% the same. 

I would look at it like a DOLLAR BILL.
Lets say OCS was a 5 Dollar Bill.
And AGA was 10 Dollar Bill.
Now SAGA is a 20 Dollar Bill.

All are Dollars - they are not the same Bills - but they include each other.

5 <  10 < 20


Mr Niding

Posts 388
05 May 2019 12:39


I agree with you Gunnar, but atleast he/Britelite, discusses the Vampire, and isnt negative by default. It was more an "intrest" point of view.

I assume many of the Demoscene people are coders by profession, and develop on monstermachines.
So in their sparetime, they tinker on the limited hardware that they had when they where kids.
Its an understandable nostalgica effect.


Kresimir Lukin

Posts 57
05 May 2019 13:36


People who lives and make money selling accelerators and other accessories for old Amigas, and selling them for enormous prices will always be against anything what compromises their business.
Why to buy 060 accelerator for 700+ euros,if you can buy 350 Euro vampire?
They will always attack vampire,not only vampire, if anybody else do anything,like exact copy of 060 on fpga,there will be people what will be against and saying that is not real hardware, therefore don't bother them.
Anyhow,my opinion is that whoever writes software for vampire must use new capabilities otherwise,what is purpose of better hardware?


A1200 Coder

Posts 45
05 May 2019 14:33


Well I think the main problem with Vampire is that it is an unfinished product yet. When V4 is out, we can say more. But at the moment SAGA seems to be more like a PC with an SVGA card, providing some new screenmodes and all graphics will have to be drawn with the 68080. The blitter is also emulated with 68080 (as I understand it), so there is no parallel execution, like what could be done with old Amigas. And real hardware sprites of course, I hope these will also not be emulated with CPU. And what else is needed, like 16-bit screenmodes with dualplayfields. Hybrid screenmodes combining planar and chunky screenmodes and such.


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 4174
05 May 2019 14:48


A1200 coder wrote:

Well I think the main problem with Vampire is that it is an unfinished product yet. When V4 is out, we can say more.
..

 
Your post seems to be based on misunderstanding.
Maybe we can help and clear these up.
 
 
SAGA has those features:
 
* 100% AGA compatible AMIGA hardware sprites 
  Including 16pix/32pix/64pix mode
  4 color / 16 color attached mode
  Sprite reuse, Sprite double show per line
  Sprite Copper multiplexing
 
* PLANAR AMIGA planes (8)
  16/32/64bit mode (new 128bit mode)
  DUAL Playfield.
 
* HW Collision detection
 
* 3rd Playfield

* In addition new feature,
  support for Chunky 8bit/15bit/16bit/24bit/32bit/YUV video mode
  support for ATARI planar modes
  Support for Litte Endian, Big Endian
 
* Immediate Blitter Mode.
  This immediate Blitter mode improves in general game compatibility significantly.
  This mode is a big compatibility advantage over running the blitter in parallel in many cases.
  Its a good feature, which we did develop on purpose!
 
* 8 Paula compatible DMA Channels supporting Audio 8bit/16bit
  HW mixing, oversampling, calculating in 24bit audio quality
   
* AMIGA Copper.
  The Copper is able to fully control ALL these features.
  That the copper can control all these - is very important
  to have a real AMIGA chipset.
 
 
As you clearly see SAGA is a true AMIGA chipset.
Its fully controlled by the AMIGA copper.
Its not a PC GFX card.

In addition APOLLO provides AMMX instructions for accelerated Blitting, Sprite operations, 3D operations, Multimedia operations.
Using AMMX for such operations gives you many advantages.
a) very high speed
b) full flexibility to create whatever effect you need.
c) multitasking support and no resource allocation issues
    (old blitter designs always have a resource(bottleneck) allocation problem)



Nixus Minimax

Posts 342
06 May 2019 08:29


Mr Niding wrote:

I agree with you Gunnar, but atleast he/Britelite, discusses the Vampire, and isnt negative by default. It was more an "intrest" point of view.

Yes, and actually he didn't demand a guaranty that the Vampire would be 100% compatible, he said it was our job to make sure that stuff that runs on classic Amigas will also run on the Vampire. And I don't see how you could not agree with that.

Furthermore, he said that the Vampire is not a recognised demo category which obviously is just as correct as the other statement. A Vampire demo would run in the Wild Compo and that is no surprise and not going to change just because we keep on whining. The Wild Compo is a fun category but highly undesirable for the Vampire because you'll end up losing against a Hewlett Packard graphical calculator doing Tetris because that one is soooooo cool...

With regard to demos, we will have to be happy that 060 demos run as good or rather better than on the target hardware. Or write our own (which is rather difficult to do well). And that is that.

I think the whining about how demosceners diss us is just as pathetic as the "is not an Amiga" propaganda.



Barana V

Posts 49
06 May 2019 09:31


Every Amiga enthusiast wants AAA , They also want an A5000.
So are you trying to tell me because it's called 'vampire' they don't want it now? An Amiga with a real chipset that plays fullspeed YouTube? Anyone?
As I said on another thread, I think it's just Asperger's people uncomfortable with an 'a5000' ( I can say this I am an aspie)
If indeed there is truth to the notion that jellous hardware manufacturers are stirring up trouble, they may make better use of their time with something like a blow up doll. Failing that a life.

".
  I just dont want to give Benzin &#9981;&#65039; to this Vampire-haters."

No, no Give them ALL the petrol they want because : " If you play with fire, sooner or later, you will get your fingers burnt" please remember: one cant tyoe with burnt fingers!
There is also the possibility with that much petrol,that they could blow themselves up.
In the interest of safety  we wouldn't want that, would we? No.



Mr Niding

Posts 388
06 May 2019 09:36


@Barana V

Calling people names or having syndromes cause they hold a particular view isnt helpful.
It will just ensure people react to those comments, instead of discussing the topic at hand.

Your presenting yourself in a way that you accuse the socalled Vampire haters to be.
"Look in the mirror" etc etc.


Barana V

Posts 49
06 May 2019 09:45


No, not at all. I did not call anyone names, I said (If you reread my last two posts on this thread)This behaviour matches an Aspie. Having great difficulty adjusting to new things.I myself am an aspie, and am familiar with this characteristic behaviour, and recognise it.
      As an Aspie I'm doing no more than pattern matching.
      It would be silly nonsense to call someone a name in  a Derogatory fashion,Because I would be doing the same to myself,Which I'm sure you'll agree, Is Illogical.
   
    You'll also observe I said *I think* . This board as I understand It has discussions about many things, based upon the vampire.
    In many western countries, we discuss opinions among other things (opinions are rather Different to Accusations) I have not once told you to not have your opinion sir. I indeed do you that respect.
   
     
      Nothing could be further from the truth, Mr Niding.
    Anyway, back to the discussion at hand.


Olaf Schoenweiss

Posts 517
06 May 2019 10:21


Talking about mental illness is not helpful...

I do not think the demo coders will change their minds

the fun of demo coding is to get most from a defined limited hardware and that is what they do

also doing a new demo targetting A1200 makes it comparable to all older demos also targetting this hardware, a new demo on Vampire is comparable to nothing because it is new hardware.

And even if... in the old days now and then demo coder teams started to create games but that happened rarely, mostly they did only demos. So if you want software demo coders are not the best option.


Ronnie Beck
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 107
06 May 2019 11:50


Mr Niding wrote:

  Calling people names or having syndromes cause they hold a particular view isnt helpful...

He characterised their attitude not the people.  If I look past the horrid grammar mistakes and read what I think he meant, then I understand that there is a culture out there which is adverse to change.  Those who vocalise it non-constructively will get burned.  I don't think his sentiment was mean spirited in any way.  But perhaps could have been expressed differently.

But there is undeniable truth there.  The nostalgia fans like their Amiga in a specific way.  Change-Adverse or not, the least civilised of the critics are vitriolic and unreasonable. But it doesn't matter really.  Nothing to be gained by discussing it with them.

Users vote with their wallets.  The growing number of Vampire owners speaks to a growing community.  Not a shrinking one.  And those who bought or will buy a Vampire were likely enticed by its exciting capabilities.  New software which leverages those capabilities will be well accepted by Vampire owners and viewed with disdain by naysayers.  This was always to be.

I think we can all agree, that software which benefits from the Vampire is certainly inevitable (and there are already good examples now!).  It is a great way to show how much life the Amiga had left to give, if Commodore didn't sink.


Mr Niding

Posts 388
06 May 2019 12:37


My whole point is;
 
  Stick to topics, and do not include characteristics that you know will/can inflame the discussion.
 
  Yes, Im sure computer science/technology have a higher % of people that have some sort of social impairment or illness that affects their social/behaviour patterns.
 
  I have several friends that are in the buissniss, and especially one is on the "spectrum". But the other ones just enjoy math/coding and are ontop of that very socially adapt/able.
 
  SO you can alienate people, even if thats not the intention.
 
  Im sure you think "grow a thicker skin", and I personally dont get worked up over these things. But looking at forums over the years, some people surely does, and it doesnt create a positive/inviting atmosphere.


Michael Borrmann

Posts 94
06 May 2019 14:30


Just start coding if you want new software.
There isn't more to it.


Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 1425
06 May 2019 20:31


Eh, of all "anti arguments" most valids seems to be that Vampire is "unfinished" or moving target, likely because core improves. But is slowly adding buxfixes, retaining old feats. With GOLD3 core that will stop, with full AGA chipset enhanced on any Amiga, wastly improved CPU with FPU etc. Only missing feats are MMU and few bugfixes that will make some games or apps run (that could missbehave on other accelerated Amigas).
   
    V4 will only add higher clock, more caches and RAM, USB and Net, nothing that new or different from coders views, just feats to use further. Only thing so new should be improved FPU that one could use (or not), just like AMMX.
   
    More documented approach to coders, if that is what they need.
    A loaner scheme or community driven given Vampires to enable them to have hardware. A move towards enabling more software would be most welcome.
   
    I am no coder, but I suppose having 080 instructions listed helps, alongside VASM coders support. But that is just for ASM guys. Similar approach - examples, low language 080 support I suppose would aim the goal.
    CLICK HERE   
    Vamps Wiki is already a great start, it should be developed further.
   
    All other "flame", well most of modern m68k software can be used on 060/RTG etc. but will simply run better on Vamps. That is from users perspective. In time, coders might embrace all new feats.
   
    Vampire is new Amiga, sadly only Inc*LLC*Legal Mambo jumbo prevents it from naming. More then "AmigaOne","AmigaMini","Amiga Forever" etc.
 
  Heh, too bad being just a social worker and not a coder.


Ronnie Beck
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 107
07 May 2019 09:17


Michael Borrmann wrote:

Just start coding if you want new software.
  There isn't more to it.

Where is the like button for this comment?  :-)


Gilles Dridi

Posts 29
08 May 2019 22:45


Gunnar von Boehn wrote:

A1200 coder wrote:

  Well I think the main problem with Vampire is that it is an unfinished product yet. When V4 is out, we can say more.
  ..
 

   
  Your post seems to be based on misunderstanding.
  Maybe we can help and clear these up.
 
 
  SAGA has those features:
   
  * 100% AGA compatible AMIGA hardware sprites 
    Including 16pix/32pix/64pix mode
    4 color / 16 color attached mode
    Sprite reuse, Sprite double show per line
    Sprite Copper multiplexing
   
  * PLANAR AMIGA planes (8)
    16/32/64bit mode (new 128bit mode)
    DUAL Playfield.
 
  * HW Collision detection
   
  * 3rd Playfield
 
  * In addition new feature,
    support for Chunky 8bit/15bit/16bit/24bit/32bit/YUV video mode
    support for ATARI planar modes
    Support for Litte Endian, Big Endian
   
  * Immediate Blitter Mode.
    This immediate Blitter mode improves in general game compatibility significantly.
    This mode is a big compatibility advantage over running the blitter in parallel in many cases.
    Its a good feature, which we did develop on purpose!
   
  * 8 Paula compatible DMA Channels supporting Audio 8bit/16bit
    HW mixing, oversampling, calculating in 24bit audio quality
   
  * AMIGA Copper.
    The Copper is able to fully control ALL these features.
    That the copper can control all these - is very important
    to have a real AMIGA chipset.
   
   
  As you clearly see SAGA is a true AMIGA chipset.
  Its fully controlled by the AMIGA copper.
  Its not a PC GFX card.
 
  In addition APOLLO provides AMMX instructions for accelerated Blitting, Sprite operations, 3D operations, Multimedia operations.
  Using AMMX for such operations gives you many advantages.
  a) very high speed
  b) full flexibility to create whatever effect you need.
  c) multitasking support and no resource allocation issues
    (old blitter designs always have a resource(bottleneck) allocation problem)
 

What about HAM mode? Are new mode compatible or only original Amiga modes?

What about disk DMA mode? And Network data transfer? Thinking about DMA time slots allocation... are Sound stopped/perturbed by an Ethernet block transfer received in « isochrone mode » thatís for video over IP (reuses of disk DMA for this transparent parallelism?) or interrupt level (6) with fast enough data routine network processing (the TCP/IP stack) is ok/enough ; though True Ethernet is not over internal Amiga serial register.

Thanks to you Iím remembering my courses about 680x0 received and done!



Markus B

Posts 100
10 May 2019 13:29


Obviously I'm no coder either, but I still have the impression that the lack of support in C compilers is a major issue.
I'm not sure if gcc for example would be able to create good code for the 68080 features if someone is able to extend gcc properly for the 080.

Maybe some demo coders will do something for the Apollo Core machines once V4 standalone is available and Gold3 development has settled. Right now, there seems to be too much of extension going on, thus the platform is not much of interest for the coders.

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