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David Wright

Posts 348
03 Jun 2018 22:53


Just found this a download of original source code for Deluxe Paint.
What could be done with it?


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 4508
03 Jun 2018 23:06


David Wright wrote:

Just found this a download of original source code for Deluxe Paint.
  What could be done with it?

Dpaint is cool and works nice.
We do all our benchmark screenshot with it.

What is your main goal?
Do you like to "define" higher resolutions like 1024x768 using PLANAR modes?


David Wright

Posts 348
04 Jun 2018 00:32


Actually the higher res in planar would be nice. I have run that mode on my 030 A1200 and it was too slow.


Eric Gus

Posts 367
04 Jun 2018 05:52


Mallagan Bellator wrote:

 
eric gus wrote:

 
Vojin Vidanovic wrote:

      but other option could be Holywood.
     

     
      My hope is AMOS PRO is "enhanced" to support SAGA/AMMX etc.. thats what I would love to see and would really excite me..
     
      But myself I am waiting for core3 to come out so I can get 2+mb chip ram on my little NTSC A500 (and no, zero interest in doing mega chip mods or anything else destructive -- which is needed for my rev mobo .. and whats the point w/core3 on the horizon) ..
     
      Once I get core3, I plan on starting to look at my old Amiga Star Trek game and enhance it within the limits of the language its written in (and ironically on the very Amiga I wrote it on now vamped).. eg better graphics, sound, more of them and namely lots of long over due bug fixes.. hello "save game" .. :-D, Last year I was able to recover the source code from a floppy a friend dug out of storage box .. (we both forgot I had given him a copy that included the source)..
   
 

 
  Itís great that youíre making games, but isnít Star Trek copyrighted?
 
  AMMX and SAGA supported by AMOS is a great idea, and it should be supported in anything that you can program with, but I wonder if AMMX and SAGA are finalized (Gunnar?) and if they wouldnít have to be, in order to have the supported by eg AMOS... just a thought
 

 
  Its a game I made a very long time ago .. freeware.. you can go google it if you like..
  The idea here would be to just enhance it and fix some very very very long standing bugs with that game.


Louis Dias
(Needs Verification)
Posts 55/ 1
04 Jun 2018 14:21


How much space in left on V4?
For instance, could the 080 be multi-core?
Could a rudimentary dedicated 3D (polygon) processor be developed...or is that the goal of AMMX3...or perhaps SAGA2?

The reason I say "dedicated" is because when it comes to polygon transformation processing, you need parallel processing to make it useful in real-time.  A 3D render could still be taken and mixed under Amiga 2D...or 2D overlayed (just a matter of perspective).  Amiga 2D could evolve into a full texture mapper.


Mallagan Bellator

Posts 380
06 Jun 2018 01:01


thellier alain wrote:

@Mallagan Bellator
  What kind of game would you like to design for the Vampire ? If it is a kinda Ghost Goblins or Xenon2 it may interest me
 
 

Actually, not ĒjustĒ vampire, but a game that would run on a fast enough 030 and 040 as well, AGA or RTG, and would benefit from the Vamp. Faster CPU etc.

I had something in mind that takes inspiration from a bunch of classics that Iíve loved, one of them being Zelda II, one other being Zelda: a link to the past, but definately 2d platformer with an overworld hub like in Zelda II. We could discuss some ideas in more private if you like.

Iím a musician too, so Iíd gladly make music for the game as well ;)


Calaminici Davide

Posts 24
07 Jun 2018 09:15


Louis Dias wrote:

  How much space in left on V4?
  For instance, could the 080 be multi-core?
  Could a rudimentary dedicated 3D (polygon) processor be developed...or is that the goal of AMMX3...or perhaps SAGA2?
 
  Interesting questions.
 
  @gunnar
  Could you please reply?
 
  I would like to add another question: there are plans to make the 68080 a more complete chip in the form of a SoC, including,for example, a DSP, Video Decoder, and other typical SoC facilities?
 
  Just another question: could a block diagram be drawed to check how 68080 looks like schematically?
 
  Thank you
 


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 4508
07 Jun 2018 09:40



Could a rudimentary dedicated 3D (polygon) processor be developed..
or for example, a DSP, Video Decoder, and other 

 
You speak about useful features.
And these features are already well covered.
 
* AMMX does provides DSP power (a lot more power than Motorolas DSP ASICs did had)
 
* AMMX does provide excellent Video Decoding features
 
* AMMX2/3 provides 3D instructions
 

If you compare having a AMMX instruction inside the CPU versus having a separate DSP chip. Then having AMMX instructions is significant more flexible.

AMIGA is a multitasking OS.
This means you can run many applications in parallel.
Like e.g. you can listen to MP3 while watch some pictures, and download in parallel something from the internet.

Having the AMMX instructions in the CPU does allow _ALL_ applications to use them in parallel.
Your Jpeg decoder can benefit from them,
and your internet software also and at the same time,
while in parallel your MP3 player uses them.

If you have a ASIC DSP then this would be much less flexible.
The software would need to allocate this DSP and using it by several programs in parallel would be much more difficult and could result in deadlock situations.




Calaminici Davide

Posts 24
07 Jun 2018 11:06


Thank you for the reply.

Could the 68080 considered a sort of SoC then?

Moreover, as modern chip design are doing, could the 68080 have multiple AMMX units?

Assuming you are using the AMMX unit to speed up video decoding, you can't use another software that fully use the AMMX at the same, at least at full speed.

Another question: what about feature like out of order execution, prefetching and so on?




Vojin Vidanovic

Posts 1627
07 Jun 2018 12:48


Calaminici Davide wrote:

  Could the 68080 considered a sort of SoC then?
 

 
  No, since AC080 is "just" CPU core with AMMX, but complete FPGA flash for Vampire that has SAGA/IDE etc. features could be seen as.
 
 
Calaminici Davide wrote:

  Moreover, as modern chip design are doing, could the 68080 have multiple AMMX units?
 

 
  As explained just message before every app can use CPU AMMX instructions, so no PPC/x86 etc. design ever had multiple AMMX units per one CPU. If you are thinking of multithreading and multiprocessing CPU has multithread ability, but that is currently supported by SAGA drivers pack only. Further use would need rewritting parts of AmigaOS or using AROS / otherOS.
 
  Couple of cores with its own AMMX units etc. could be possible, but only in extremely large FPGA or ASIC and would need a redesigned AROS / some other OS to support it, so its not a realistic go-go (yet).
 
 
Calaminici Davide wrote:

  Assuming you are using the AMMX unit to speed up video decoding, you can't use another software that fully use the AMMX at the same, at least at full speed.
 

 
  Its not physical unit but CPU instruction set. As long as you dont burden CPU over 100% you could do as many as you wish.
 
 
Calaminici Davide wrote:

  Another question: what about feature like out of order execution, prefetching and so on?
 

 
 
  See features CLICK HERE 
  AC080 has it almost all + Fully pipelined, double/extended FPU should debut in Vampire V4 generation.
 
 
  In comparable x86 world our AC080 reminds me of Cyrix Pentium MMX generation -  it was a fast CPU per Mhz, with P6 features, but had (in past fast) 486 FPU. No, we dont have bad FPU but we have our new CPU which is kind of Pentium Pro generation and with high results per Mhz :-)
 


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 4508
07 Jun 2018 13:55


Vojin Vidanovic wrote:

In comparable x86 world our AC080 reminds me of Cyrix Pentium MMX

APOLLO is more advanced than this Pentium.



Szyk Cech

Posts 191
07 Jun 2018 15:38


Gunnar von Boehn wrote:

  APOLLO is more advanced than this Pentium.

Notable differences:
1. 64-bit registers
2. Far more registers.



Thellier Alain

Posts 116
08 Jun 2018 10:15


Mallagan Bellator wrote:

but a game that would run on a fast enough 030 and 040 as well, AGA or RTG, and would benefit from the Vamp

OK we will see more when I will have a standalone vampire...


Louis Dias
(Needs Verification)
Posts 55/ 1
08 Jun 2018 14:44


Gunnar von Boehn wrote:


  Could a rudimentary dedicated 3D (polygon) processor be developed..
  or for example, a DSP, Video Decoder, and other 
 

 
  You speak about useful features.
  And these features are already well covered.
 
  * AMMX does provides DSP power (a lot more power than Motorolas DSP ASICs did had)
 
  * AMMX does provide excellent Video Decoding features
 
  * AMMX2/3 provides 3D instructions
   
 
  If you compare having a AMMX instruction inside the CPU versus having a separate DSP chip. Then having AMMX instructions is significant more flexible.
 
  AMIGA is a multitasking OS.
  This means you can run many applications in parallel.
  Like e.g. you can listen to MP3 while watch some pictures, and download in parallel something from the internet.
 
  Having the AMMX instructions in the CPU does allow _ALL_ applications to use them in parallel.
  Your Jpeg decoder can benefit from them,
  and your internet software also and at the same time,
  while in parallel your MP3 player uses them.
 
  If you have a ASIC DSP then this would be much less flexible.
  The software would need to allocate this DSP and using it by several programs in parallel would be much more difficult and could result in deadlock situations.

First, let me apologize in advance if I sound ignorant...

I don't believe anyone's asking for a DSP ASIC...
It's great to have 3d functions in the CPU, however, wouldn't a more appropriate place be a SuperAkiko that could process PC-style 3D?  Since Akiko is doing I/O in the CD32 in addition to C2P, it seems natural to implement SuperAkiko 3D functionality  on V4.  Putting too much on the cpu isn't the Amiga way afterall.

It would be nice to be able to get into this realm of 3D processing [but in 24bit, not 15bit]:
EXTERNAL LINK 

Is there any Amiga/AROS software that can open and render .STL files?
I'd love to see an OpenSCAD port for AROS/Amiga  EXTERNAL LINK


Gregthe Canuck

Posts 274
08 Jun 2018 15:47


Hi Louis -

Are you aware that chunky screenmodes are supported in the Apollo core? IMO this pretty much obsoletes any need for Akiko-style functionality. Akiko did nothing for 3D except the chunky conversions (from what I understand).

The Sega Saturn's total memory bandwidth is less than what the Apollo core is capable of. In addition the CPU is clocked far higher on the Apollo core.

Could a Vampire system get close to a Sega Saturn level of performance? I don't know. The Sega has pair of custom "VDP"s but the Vampire has more raw grunt (that is always being improved).

A lot likely depends on where the team decides the "next big thing" for the core is after getting version 3 out with AGA and full GPU support. Lots of spare room in the ASIC. :)

Cheers!



Louis Dias
(Needs Verification)
Posts 55/ 1
08 Jun 2018 15:57


gregthe canuck wrote:

Hi Louis -
 
  Are you aware that chunky screenmodes are supported in the Apollo core? IMO this pretty much obsoletes any need for Akiko-style functionality. Akiko did nothing for 3D except the chunky conversions (from what I understand).
 
  The Sega Saturn's total memory bandwidth is less than what the Apollo core is capable of. In addition the CPU is clocked far higher on the Apollo core.
 
  Could a Vampire system get close to a Sega Saturn level of performance? I don't know. The Sega has pair of custom "VDP"s but the Vampire has more raw grunt (that is always being improved).
 
  A lot likely depends on where the team decides the "next big thing" for the core is after getting version 3 out with AGA and full GPU support. Lots of spare room in the ASIC. :)
 
  Cheers!

Yes, but I wasn't comparing cpus.  My concern is burdening the cpu with 3d functionality going forward.  Yes, AMMX2/3 can do 3d functions but can it render a scene at 30 fps with 200,000 polygons and still run game code like the consoles of the mid 90's?

Yes, SAGA will be a 2D powerhouse...but why stop there?  Let's create a dedicated 3D co-processor.  Let the cpu be a cpu.  The way the CD32 was designed seemed point in that direction.  That's all I'm saying...


Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 4508
08 Jun 2018 17:30


Louis Dias wrote:

Yes, but I wasn't comparing cpus.  My concern is burdening the cpu with 3d functionality going forward.

   
Very important in real live - but often overlooked is the "communication" overhead that you have between 2 units.
   
You all know that the AMIGA did had a helper chip for 2D drawing - called the Blitter. You might easily get mislead and assume that using this Blitter Drawing unit would be optimal to use for every drawing task?  And that the best idea is to use it always?
   
In reality this is not the case. Extra chips needed "extra" communication effort. Such effort can be significant.
   
As you might expect now, for small blits it is indeed faster
to NOT use the BLITTER at all, but do it with the CPU as you avoid the communication overhead - especially when your CPU is fast.
   
You mentioned CD32 / AKIKO - this is also an excellent example.
Using AKIKO has HUGE communication overhead.
Apollo 68080 is severaltimes faster doing C2P alone then if it would communicate with AKIKO.

To say it clearly : AKIKO would significantly slowdown Apollo.
 

If you think about this, then you realize that a powerful CPU is not only more powerful but also more flexible to use.
   
   
Lets compare this with a "real world" example.
 
If you are in a city you have the option to move a distance either by walking on foot or you can wait for the bus or call a taxi.
   
Its obvious that waiting for the bus or calling a taxi (with phone) has a certain overhead and involves a waiting time.
   
So if the distance is short or medium short - it could be faster to walk then wait for the bus.
   
And if your running speed could by improved, then it makes less and less sense to wait for the cap or bus.
   
If I could give you super human powers, maybe with an  AMMX pill. So that you can run as fast as this guy here:

 
Would you then ever again wait for the bus?
 
   
   


David Wright

Posts 348
08 Jun 2018 18:19


I like Gunnar's computer parables. An Amiga digital messiah.


Mallagan Bellator

Posts 380
09 Jun 2018 11:24


thellier alain wrote:

Mallagan Bellator wrote:

  but a game that would run on a fast enough 030 and 040 as well, AGA or RTG, and would benefit from the Vamp

 
  OK we will see more when I will have a standalone vampire...

Sounds awesome to me. Iím hoping for a v4 too


Mallagan Bellator

Posts 380
09 Jun 2018 11:37


gregthe canuck wrote:

  Lots of spare room in the ASIC. :)
 
  Cheers!
 

In that case, I would vote for a second 080 core, making it dual core. (128 bits compared to 32?) that, and if space would allow, another SAGA processing core for the same thing. Should speed things up a bit ;)

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